SUING CA'S: What violations win.

[Anonymous]

I'm getting ready to hit some CA'S pretty hard with the DV letters.

My question is, if I end up in court what are the violations that win. I don't just want to go to court and say to the judge, well,

1. they could not validate, this bill with a signature and a contract, and the authority to collect ... i.e, my first DV letter

2. I sent a second DV clarify what is considered validation and I gave them an extra 15 days

3. I sent them an Estoppel letter which basically says that hey if you can't validate it I understand, just delete the TL

4. By the way I origanally disputed with the CRA as not mine, most CA'S that are abiding by the FDCPA/FCRA will not verify if they don't have proof.

Now, that should be enough to win In court Yet.

I also want to go to court and say on top of all of the above they violated the following statutes of the FCRA and FDCPA: .... not only are these guys stubborn but negligent and violating the Fedral and State collection laws it is an outrage that these are even in business!!!!

Can anybody make a list of what violations I should be ready to present to further strengthen my case????

TIA

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1056004230[/TIME]]

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1056004334[/TIME]]

[cybercrusader]

Well, this has the potential to be an interesting thread....

I'm not going to prepare a list, but I notice (from boatloads of reading and typing in key words in case searches) that many, many suits are pretty much done deals when the CA screws up on the 809 required validation language. I even read a case (I think in NJ) where the font was too small!

Documented and verifiable harassment seems to be a close second. But this is just my observation on FDCPA type suits.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start posting links to these suits?

[Edit by cybercrusader on [TIME]1055965874[/TIME]]

[Pale Rider]

This is a good site that lists lots of possible violations and why

http://www.pennlawyer.com/fdcpa.htm

[Anonymous]

<blockquote>Originally posted by Pale Rider

This is a good site that lists lots of possible violations and why

http://www.pennlawyer.com/fdcpa.htm

</blockquote>

Thanks Pale Rider,, I'll put that one im my archives too!!!!! :D :D

[smogtek]

Keep in mind that most, if not all, judges/commissioners/wannabes, etc are WOEFULLY ignorant of the FCRA/FDCPA provisions.

Not only will you have to make your case, but you will also have to educate the "man/woman in black" - all in about 6-8 minutes!

The $1,000 bucks is not a given and from what I've read around the boards, your best chance for that kind of money is getting the CAs/CRAs in violations and getting them to settle out of court.

I took EQ to court, showed the commissioner the law and got $100 for each of the 2 addresses they had reinserted.

[Edit by smogtek on [TIME]1055995854[/TIME]]

[Anonymous]

<blockquote>Originally posted by cybercrusader

Well, this has the potential to be an interesting thread....

I'm not going to prepare a list, but I notice (from boatloads of reading and typing in key words in case searches) that many, many suits are pretty much done deals when the CA screws up on the 809 required validation language. I even read a case (I think in NJ) where the font was too small!

Documented and verifiable harassment seems to be a close second. But this is just my observation on FDCPA type suits.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start posting links to these suits?

[Edit by cybercrusader on [TIME]1055965874[/TIME]]

</blockquote>

Hey CC thats a good Idea we should start posting links.

Can you also post section 809 OF FDCPA

I think we sould also post DV, 2ND DVS and ESTOPPELS for different types of bills or at least some basic ones. I want to start seeing some COURT success stories like what we are seeing with the CRA'S and the GOODWILL letters.

I rewrote the first thread so readers can see where it all is going. ... I might rewrite this again a few times for clairity.

Hey if you see anything on the net that might be worth linking to by all means.

TIA

[Anonymous]

I guess this is the GRAND DADDY OF winnig against the CA'S

§ 809. Validation of debts [15 USC 1692g]

(a) Within five days after the initial communication with a consumer in connection with the collection of any debt, a debt collector shall, unless the following information is contained in the initial communication or the consumer has paid the debt, send the consumer a written notice containing --

(1) the amount of the debt;

(2) the name of the creditor to whom the debt is owed;

(3) a statement that unless the consumer, within thirty days after receipt of the notice, disputes the validity of the debt, or any portion thereof, the debt will be assumed to be valid by the debt collector;

(4) a statement that if the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, the debt collector will obtain verification of the debt or a copy of a judgment against the consumer and a copy of such verification or judgment will be mailed to the consumer by the debt collector; and

(5) a statement that, upon the consumer's written request within the thirty-day period, the debt collector will provide the consumer with the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor.

( If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector.

© The failure of a consumer to dispute the validity of a debt under this section may not be construed by any court as an admission of liability by the consumer

.... And I always like to say the a debt is Defined as

(5) The term "debt" means any obligation or alleged obligation of a consumer to pay money arising out of a transaction in which the money, property, insurance or services which are the subject of the transaction are primarily for personal, family, or household purposes, whether or not such obligation has been reduced to judgment.

[Anonymous]

This Post is compliments of EDDIE TAMPA

...your DV,

Heres a nice link

http://www.carreonandassociates.com/validationofdebt.htm

there you can get a good grasp of it

I always include a copy of the Wollman letter, its there

heres the DV letter I send along with the FTC Wollman letters.. I kicked their a$$ with this combo.. was out 8 outta 8

.... Ok, here is the Wollman letter:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/letters/wollman.htm

however im still fighting 2 OC's right now.. those were my first tries.. I fugged up a little, starting taking on a little water but im gonna right this ship

DV letter:....................

March 30, 2003

Via Certified Mail

Arrow financial

RE: Account #ggggggggggg

To Whom It May Concern:

In recently reviewing my credit profile, I discovered the above referenced account. This is not a refusal to pay, but a notice that your claim is being disputed. This is a request for validation made pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. Please complete and return the attached disclosure request form.

Be advised that I am not requesting a "verification" that you have my mailing address, I am requesting a "validation;" that is, competent evidence that I have some contractual obligation to pay you.

You should also be aware that sending unsubstantiated demands for payment through the United States Mail System might constitute mail fraud under federal and state law. You may wish to consult with a competent legal advisor before your next communication with me.

Please complete the Creditor Disclosure Statement and provide the following information return same to me within specified time period, infra.

1. Please evidence your authorization under 15 USC 1692(e) and 15 USC 1692(f) in this alleged matter.

2. What is your authorization of law for your collection of information?

3. What is your authorization of law for your collection of this alleged debt?

4. Please evidence your authorization to do business or operate in this state.

5. Please evidence proof of the alleged debt, including specifically the alleged contract or other instrument bearing my signature.

Your failure to respond, on point, in writing, hand signed, and in a timely manner, will work as a waiver to any and all of your claims in this matter, and will entitle me to presume that you sent your letter in error, and that this matter is permanently closed.

For the purposes of 15 USC 1692 et seq., this Notice has the same effect as a dispute to the validity of the alleged debt and a dispute to the validity of your claims. This Notice is an attempt to correct your records, and any information received from you will be collected as evidence should further action be necessary. This is a request for information only, and is not a statement, election, or waiver of status.

I affirm, under penalty of perjury under the Laws of the Land for these United States of America, that the foregoing is true and correct, to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Your failure to satisfy this request within the requirements of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act will be construed as your absolute waiver of any and all claims against me, and your tacit agreement to compensate me for costs and attorney fees.

Best Regards,

heres the 2nd sheet of the letter

CREDITOR DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

1. Name and Address of Collector (assignee): _________________________

2. Name and Address of Debtor: ____________________________________

3. Account Number(s): ____________________________________________

4. What are the terms of assignment for this account? You may attach a facsimile of any records relating to such terms.

5. Have any insurance claims been made by any creditor or assignee regarding this account? YES/NO

6. Has the purported balanced of this account been used in any tax deduction claim? YES/NO

7. Please list the particular products or services sold by the collector to the debtor and the dollar amount of each:

Upon failure or refusal of collector to validate this collection action, collector agrees to waive all claims against the debtor named herein and pay debtor for all costs and attorney fees involved in defending this collection action.

________________________________

Authorized signature for Collector

__/__/__

Date

Please return this completed form and attach all assignment or other transfer agreements that would establish your right to collect this debt. Your claim cannot be considered if any portion of this form is not completed and returned with the required documents. This is a request for validation made pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. If you do not respond as required by this law, your claim will not be considered and you may be liable for damages for continued collection efforts.

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1055804159[/TIME]]...

[Anonymous]

This post is compliments of CALAWYER

Adsoft:

Numbers 2 and 3 i the body of the letter are a big yuck (legal term ). Try this:

2. How are you legally authorized to (request/report?) this information?

3. How are you legally authorized to collect this alleged debt?

I don't really get number 2 as it is written. Look carefully and add the correct verb.

Good luck

[Anonymous]

Here is an interesting post where COOKIEMONSTER attempts answere my question on validation, I guess she got busy and could never finish it.

I was trying to tie "contract law" with the FDCPA at that time. I couldn't do it then but I might make another post that will tie them together with case letters. Wollman and Spears/Brennan.

http://www.debt-consolidation-credit-repair-service.com/cgi-local/cutecast/cutecast.pl?session=qHqP5m9RJwMa0DGf2ah0jxBvqN&forum=2&thread=5905

[Anonymous]

<blockquote>Originally posted by smogtek

Keep in mind that most, if not all, judges/commissioners/wannabes, etc are WOEFULLY ignorant of the FCRA/FDCPA provisions.

Not only will you have to make your case, but you will also have to educate the "man/woman in black" - all in about 6-8 minutes!

The $1,000 bucks is not a given and from what I've read around the boards, your best chance for that kind of money is getting the CAs/CRAs in violations and getting them to settle out of court.

I took EQ to court, showed the commissioner the law and got $100 for each of the 2 addresses they had reinserted.

[Edit by smogtek on [TIME]1055995854[/TIME]]

</blockquote>

So SmogTek

This is another obstical that must be overcome, getting a competant Judge.

Is there a way to prescreen a judge or to delay the hearing until the judge educates himself about bill collecting practices????!!!!!!

You know I went to court a few times to help some friends in some computer related issues. I was a so called TECHNICAL person. This was in small claims courts, and the Judge realized that he was not competent to make a ruling because he wasn't a computer literate person, so he gave us a 30 day delay till he got his act together and the other side got thier TECHIE.

... unfortionatly, I never went back after 30 days due to lack of FINANCIAL COMPENSATION for my efforts.

I would figure that we should be able to get some kind of delay until the judge becomes familar with FDCPA/FCRA, or maybe recommend that members of this board just start filing at the FEDRAL LEVEL?

What do you think about that??????

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1056012398[/TIME]]

[Anonymous]

Since I started my credit repair quest, I always argued that everything boiled down to CONTRACT LAW. Now, I have made some posts on other boards and talked to some very exprienced and respected persons.

We all agreed that there are two sides/methods to validating debts.

1) Was with SPEARS and Brennan, which set precedence

but, In my discussions, and from contract experience, I agrued from a contractual point of view.

ie,

2) The process of creating a contract.

I don't have time now, but I the near future, I'm going to post the basic tenents of what it takes to create a Contractual OBLIGATION.

I noticed that the FDCPA defines DEBT AS:

(5) The term "debt" means any obligation or alleged obligation of a consumer to pay money arising out of a transaction in which the money, property, insurance or services which are the subject of the transaction are primarily for personal, family, or household purposes, whether or not such obligation has been reduced to judgment.

...And I would think it would be very easy to argue to any judge that without a signed contract and specified terms a DEBT COLLECTOR has no right to collect a debt and put it on your credit report: i.e. the Wollman Letter.

... I would like the more experience members to comment on this.

I'm even going to step out on a limb here, just for the sake of getting attention to this link, which I feel it deserves because this the ultimate goal in cleaning our credit reports, that if your focust on the DEFINITION of a DEBT as an OBLIGATION, proving VALIDATION or LACK OF VALIDATION is a no brainer.

I would challenge members to challenge me on this point, because like I said before, if one sticks to CONTRACT LAW tying PROPER VALIDATION to an ALLEGED OBLIGATION is a no brainer.!!!!!

All comments / challenges welcome!!!!

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1056013713[/TIME]]

[Anonymous]

I recommend that Everybody who is DEALING with CA'S read this:

http://www.lawpoint.com/fdcpa.htm

[Anonymous]

These are your rights to SUE:

Your Rights to Sue

Your Right to Sue a Collector for Violations of the FDCPA.You have the right to sue a debt collector within one year from the date you believe the law was violated. This is what our law firm does. If you do not bring you lawsuit within one year of the violation, your claim will be forever barred by a statute of limitations. If you win your lawsuit, you may recover money for the damage you suffered, statutory damages of up to $1,000 plus court costs and your attorney's fees.

NOTICE THE FOLLOWING

1) You only have 1 yr to sue on violations

2) You may recover money for the damages you suffered, .... how about if you can prove that you had to pay extra money in interest

3) You can sue for Court Costs and ATTORNEYS FEE'S, hum, why not just sue in Fedral Court and give all the paper work to an ATTORNEY?????

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1056014601[/TIME]]

[Anonymous]

Now here is a letter where the FTC came down on CA: .... for those of you that think that the stuff on this board doesn't work !!!!!!!

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/02/perimeter.htm

[Anonymous]

Here is another interesting post if you want to know if those letters you are getting from collectors are legal.

http://fair-debt-collection.com/Fair_Debt_Collection_Act/Section-12.html

[Anonymous]

For those of you who want to know it the CA willfully commited a violation:

http://proselitigant.net/wwwthreads/Wcb454c29e5de9.htm

[Anonymous]

You have to read this!!!!!

http://creditforum.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=883

[Anonymous]

Here is an interesting site, Notice how Proponderance of Evidence can let a FDCPA off the hook!!!!

.... Boy that sucks, no wonder its hard to sue these guys.

http://www.wolffirm.com/publications/51.htm

[Edit by adsofttest on [TIME]1056017155[/TIME]]

[Anonymous]

Here is a lot of usefull information:

http://members.cox.net/faircredit/disputes.htm

[Anonymous]

This might be help full if you are getting a FORECLOUSURE:FDCPA & foreclousures ?????????

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:DDCPfPE_eRwJ:www.fallawyers.com/pdf/fdpca1.pdf+FDCPA+VIOLATIONS+VALIDATION&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[cybercrusader]

Somebody take this man's mouse away!!! :)

Adsoft thanks for the posts! I'm going to go through each one. I didn't have time to read them all in one sitting....

When you started this thread I thought you wanted ACTUAL CASES THAT WIN, not a list of violations. Lists of violations are everywhere. The real issue is whether or not they have teeth to win in court. I'm on the prowl for ACTUAL WINNING CASES.......will post...

[cybercrusader]

No IF'S, AND'S or BUT'S. Let's start with the infamous Spears v. Brennan case because it's loaded with many CA (FDCPA) violations that COULD win. That's COULD. No guarantee that you'll be successful.

Spears vs. Brennan:

http://www.ai.org/judiciary/opinions/archive/03260101.ewn.html

Some interesting chat regarding this case:

**From collectionindustry.com - excellent analysis from the point of view of CA's and attorney's. Pay close attention to what "hotlwyr" says on page 2:

http://www.collectionindustry.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=39&highlight_key=y&keyword1=spears%20

**Some plain english interpretation:

http://creditcourt.com/law/fdcpa-spears.shtml

[Edit by cybercrusader on [TIME]1056028650[/TIME]]

[cybercrusader]

<blockquote>Originally posted by smogtek

Keep in mind that most, if not all, judges/commissioners/wannabes, etc are WOEFULLY ignorant of the FCRA/FDCPA provisions.

Not only will you have to make your case, but you will also have to educate the "man/woman in black" - all in about 6-8 minutes!

The $1,000 bucks is not a given and from what I've read around the boards, your best chance for that kind of money is getting the CAs/CRAs in violations and getting them to settle out of court.

I took EQ to court, showed the commissioner the law and got $100 for each of the 2 addresses they had reinserted.

[Edit by smogtek on [TIME]1055995854[/TIME]]

</blockquote>

This is an excellent point and should be heeded by anyone thinking of filing suit.

In my case (I was actually the defendent) the evidence was cut and dry. NO MEANINGFUL VALIDATION WHATSOVER. I walked into court with a small phone book's worth of documents. A slam dunk I thought. The small claims judge rules for the plaintiff????? WTF???? To add insult to injury, the opinion read "Based on the testimony presented here today, it's clear that judgment should be entered for the plaintif.

Clear? This is when I lost all respect for small claims.....

<blockquote>Originally posted by adsofttest

Is there a way to prescreen a judge or to delay the hearing until the judge educates himself about bill collecting practices????!!!!!!

FAST FORWARD, FAST FORWARD......

I would figure that we should be able to get some kind of delay until the judge becomes familar with FDCPA/FCRA, or maybe recommend that members of this board just start filing at the FEDRAL LEVEL?

What do you think about that??????</blockquote>

Don't hold your breath. This is small claims we're talking about here. They're too busy dealing with petty crimes and misdemeanors. Many don't even have law degrees.

Suing a CA in federal court has advantages, but that's not something the average joe/jane can do on his or her own. Besides, you better have a case.

<blockquote>Originally posted by adsofttest

I would challenge members to challenge me on this point, because like I said before, if one sticks to CONTRACT LAW tying PROPER VALIDATION to an ALLEGED OBLIGATION is a no brainer.!!!!!

All comments / challenges welcome!!!!</blockquote>

Dude, validating a debt (ie, proving it) is contract law. It order to claim someone breached a contract, you have to establish that they were party to the contract....period. I don't know what you're challenging because you're saying that in your post.

[Edit by cybercrusader on [TIME]1056036730[/TIME]]

[swedecic]

Here's an idea, why not sit down and compile everything you want to say in one or two posts? Please, don't do a new post with every single sentence.

Now to your question, what are you looking for? Case law or list of violations??

[Edit by swedecic on [TIME]1056039459[/TIME]]