Ronalddog

Your debt validation strategy has a flaw!!

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I didn't read all five pages of this post, so please forgive me if I am repeating someone else.

What about collection agencies that never send one single letter, but do report to CRAs. Most people don't run their credit unless they are getting ready to buy something -- the collection account could have been on their credit report for years with them having any knowledge of it at all. So when does their 30-day clock start?

Another question I have is, does the court automatically believe the collection agency if they say they did send a letter? I mean, we have to prove all of our correspondence with green cards. Do the courts just take the word of the collection agencies?

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I support the last poster. I have never received a letter from "FirstPoint Collection...." yet, last month they were suddenly reporting a debt. I only found it because I pulled a bureau (which I do DAILY). NOW, this listing CLAIMS that the account was opened by them 8/03 and reported 10/03 YET it was NOT on my bureau until 12/03!

Now Paralegal, you explain why I could not demand validation now!

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What happended to RONALD McDONALD???? , HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

... I'll say Hi to some of my old pals later!!!

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I didn't read all five pages of this post, so please forgive me if I am repeating someone else.

What about collection agencies that never send one single letter, but do report to CRAs. Most people don't run their credit unless they are getting ready to buy something -- the collection account could have been on their credit report for years with them having any knowledge of it at all. So when does their 30-day clock start?

Another question I have is, does the court automatically believe the collection agency if they say they did send a letter? I mean, we have to prove all of our correspondence with green cards. Do the courts just take the word of the collection agencies?

You send them a DV letter!!!! You can always send a DV letter and get the debt validation process going. Start getting your evidence going, aka build your paper trail

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I know this is old, but I enjoyed reminiscing...

I also think that we were a bit hostile to the challenge of defending our methods in response to this person. Or maybe it was just good ol' fashion ego...

either way, we should be able to confront and argue our logic when challenged, and I think it's great that everyone stepped up here... even though some of the comments were more about "attacking the person" for his/her logic... rather than the logic/confusion/challenge itself.

I still enjoyed reading the post. And I thought it was great how the newbie totally hijacked the post and the senior members were vary gracious. Nicely done peeps.

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Hello all-

I've been thoroughly engrossed in this discussion started by Ronalddog. Today is my first day on (9/14/04) and it is very apparent that patience is thin on both sides. RD - relax (and I say that without a hint of sarcasm or sharpness). I am sure you are anxious to get these debts squared away and I understand that - i woudl have never found this site if I wasn't too.

However, it is important to remember that no legal process is quick and easy. The bottom line from what I've gathered is that there is no way to prove one way or another that any one piece of advice on this site, based on case law, compiled law or otherwise, is a guarantee that anything is going to work. It is as simple as, "here are some suggestions, tools and testimonials of what we've done, and a few people to ask questions to help you understand the complications of these issues. " The responsibility to each one of us - those who got ourselves into debt in the first place - and those of us who valid claims to the contrary - is to get ourselves out of the hole and get back on with our lives.

People unwilling to take a chance - those who ask for proof or guarantees before they make the effort - aren't going to get anywhere. What is the worst thing that could happen? Probably that you pay the debt you owed in the first place (and possibly a little more for court fees) and the best thing is that if not all, at least some of that debt will disappear.

I've gone to court for another type of issue unrelated to finances with no lawyer, months of research on case law and compiled law, countless call to lawyers willign to give me advice over the phone and a ton of reading about what to do in court, what to expect, etc. I ran around filing paperwork, learning how to caption, and write court documents, etc. I'll tell you it was the scariest thing I ever did, and one of the things I am most proud of - I won my case.

Come on - drop the I need to know before it happens, do the work and take a chance.

My motto is "Plug your nose and jump off into the deep end, you already know how to swim, you just have to believe in yourself."

Your psychology counseling session for the day...

Sorry, lol

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Guys - I didn't come here to pick on you but to ask questions.

I would think that an adult conversation of the actual law and facts would help us all out immensely. I am trying to get everything out in the open where a novice can look at these posts and say "Wow - that really helped me."

Therefore please give me the authorities whether in federal law, California law or case law in federal or state court on the following contentions that I see several times throughout this site:

1. That a collection agency has to respond to your validation letter after the dunning letter and the 30-day period is up.

No one has ever maintained the position that a response to a request for debt validation is required and a reading of the statutes makes that clear.

Although a collector need not provide validation, they must cease collection activities.

As for case law cites:

The Seventh Circuit has held that the debt collector does not violate the statute if it ceases all further collection activities without providing the information. Jang v. A. M. Miller & Assoc., Inc., 1996 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 10883 (N.D.Ill., July 30, 1996), aff'd, 122 F.3d 480 (7th Cir. 1997)

"When a collection agency cannot verify a debt, the statute allows the debt collector to cease all collection activities at that point without incurring any liability for the mistake"; Sambor v. Omnia Credit Services, Inc., 183 F.Supp.2d 1234, 1242 (D.Haw. 2002); Smith v. Transworld

Systems, Inc., 953 F.2d 1025, 1031-32 (6th Cir. 1992).

And of course:

Section 1692g© provides that “The failure of a consumer to dispute the validity of a debt under this section may not be construed by any court as an admission of liability by the consumer.” Under this section, the initial communication from a debt collector cannot be used as the basis for an account stated. Citibank v. Jones, 184 Misc.2d 63, 706 N.Y.S.2d 301 (Dist.

Ct. 2000).

2. What protection do you have if the collection agency lies and said it sent the dunning letter and the validation notice with the FDCPA language?

Discovery. Violations by the collector also decrease the collector's credibility before the court, making the consumer's claims more believable. In any event, a dunning letter is never necessary. A consumer need only send a letter requesting validation in order to trigger violations of the FDCPA and the Fair Credit Reporting Act (specifically see 1681s).

3. That a lawsuit would prevail against a collection agency for not responding to a validation letter sent after the 30 day period.

The collection agency must cease collection activity upon receipt of a letter requesting debt validation. Thus, post receipt inquiries, updating trade-lines, additional demand letters and notices, telephone calls, initial reporting of trade-lines etc all constitute violations of the FDCPA.

4. How one would get the attention of an original creditor to force them to remove a erroneous entry off a credit report.

Send a dispute letter. That triggers FCRA violations if they fail to correct information.

5. How one would get the attention of the credit reporting agencies to remove a erroneous entry of a credit report.

File suit once all steps are completed. Those steps would be sending a dispute and assuming it's verfied, sending a procedures request and upon receipt of a response, disputing again and assuming it's verified sending another procedures request. This process is repeated until you receive a refusal to reinvestigate, then file suit. Suits against CRAs are only successful in federal court. State courts lack authority and CRAs never comply with their orders. A good example is a woman whose purse was stolen. She filed a police report but several months later she had an enormous amount of debt as a result of several fraudulent credit card applications. Like an idiot, she filed in state court and got judgment. Unfortunately for her, Trans Union does not have an office in Ohio, is not registered as a foreign corporatoin in Ohio and does not have a registered agent in Ohio. As a result, Trans Union did not have to comply with the judges injunctive relief which ordered them to remove the offending trade-lines. After 18 months, she is now back in federal court suing Trans Union again. Unless Trans Union settles, it will be another year before trial. Why Trans Union wouldn't comply in light of the evidence presented against them is bizarre but it is their policy not to take orders from state judges unless they are obliged to do so (because the have an office in that state etc). An ITS would only be sent if your state laws require it, otherwise it's pointless since they never respond (unless you have already sued and won).

Be nice and lets discuss this fully without the abuse and obtuse comments eh?

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4. How one would get the attention of an original creditor to force them to remove a erroneous entry off a credit report.

5. How one would get the attention of the credit reporting agencies to remove a erroneous entry of a credit report.

answer: simple... report a fraud alert and talk to the cra's and the cr's and they will usually work with you. i have done that myself and already 4 out of 6 items have been deleted! :D chances are all they will ask u for is a copy of your driver's license and they will match the signatures. how many people sign their name the exact same way everytime?

i appreciate you bringing up your concerns but it is a little obvious that you haven't been a paralegal very long. maybe instead of insisting you are correct how about bringing up your points in a not-so-offending, matter-of-fact way and u may get better feedback.

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I didn't read all five pages of this post, so please forgive me if I am repeating someone else.

What about collection agencies that never send one single letter, but do report to CRAs. Most people don't run their credit unless they are getting ready to buy something -- the collection account could have been on their credit report for years with them having any knowledge of it at all. So when does their 30-day clock start?

I'm a newbie around here so forgive me if I am wrong on any point. The clock starts when you receive notice from the CA that they have the debt. If they haven't received a notice, the clock hasn't started.

Moreover, they are probably in violation of the FDCPA. If they contacted you in any way to let you they had the debt, they are required within five days to send such a notice.

Secondarily, if they have not contacted you, they probably do not qualify as a "debt collector" under 803(6) of the FDCPA, in which case they have no right to report the account to the CRAs.

If I'm right, they owe you $2k for the violations.

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[Therefore please give me the authorities whether in federal law, California law or case law in federal or state court on the following contentions that I see several times throughout this site:

1. That a collection agency has to respond to your validation letter after the dunning letter and the 30-day period is up.

Actually, the CA doesn't have to respond. The DV places obligations on them, the most potent being they cannot continue to collect ( including reporting you to teh CRAs during the validation period. They can, however, choose to do nothing. Some CA and letter houses dun til someone squaks, then they close their file and send the account back to the OC. Also, most CA's I have seen send their letters on preprinted stock that always contains the mini-Miranda warning. I would argue that if the warning is included on a letter, it is an invitation to DV

Remember, too, that 809(a)(3) allows any objection to be made anytime. This does not set off the validation rights of (B), but it "red flags" the item to the CA. They cannot assume the debt as valid. Which may result in violations if they make the assumption.

2. What protection do you have if the collection agency lies and said it sent the dunning letter and the validation notice with the FDCPA language?

It's called cross-examination, the greatest engine in search of the truth devised by man.

3. That a lawsuit would prevail against a collection agency for not responding to a validation letter sent after the 30 day period.

A lawsuit would not prevail. You cannot force them to answer But if they do not answer, or answer insufficiently, and continue to collect during the 30 days, you will prevail

4. How one would get the attention of an original creditor to force them to remove a erroneous entry off a credit report.

Use the new " know or should know" standard in the FCRA

5. How one would get the attention of the credit reporting agencies to remove a erroneous entry of a credit report.

Likewise, you sue

Be nice and lets discuss this fully without the abuse and obtuse comments eh?

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Had a CA call and I answered the phone. They cited the usual things they do and she said I never disputed the debt of letter sent on such and such date. I simply said prove to me that I owe the debt. She said I would have to dispute in writing from the original letter. Told her I never received it and she sent another one and I disputed in reply to that letter. So it seemed pretty easy to get a dated letter that should hold up in court. Waiting to see if I get an answer and by the way this is on a debt that is way past SOL.

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im sure your dv was as timely as this post:shock:

This topic is ancient,but I still enjoyed it. Love to see the fur flying with the legal minds weighing in on one side or the other.:mrgreen::wink:

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I feel like I just ate a huge dinner loaded with carbs. I can't believe I read the whole thing! Its wayyy past my bedtime and I'm tired.

Mailing my first DV letter tomorrow....in honor of RDogg, of course, who looked to only have lasted a couple months on here...

Cheers,

kl

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As old as this is... it had the answers to many of the questions I had been wondering and could not find. At this rate, we will see it pop up again in a few years. (I read the whole thing too!) lol

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