Non-credit legal case

[copperarab]

Hi all....I am hopint that some of the lawyers-lawyer like minds can give me some good arguement to stand on here..maybe some court rulings or laws to back me up.

I made a police report in early Feb. against my granddaughters bio-father for removal and theft of her earrings. I had her ears peirced when she was 3 months old, paid $40 for the earrings, and had never had a problem with them.

The father, on one of his court-ordered visits, removed the earrings w/o telling me. I have Full guardianship of the now 2 yr old kiddo, and my papers state that I have legal medical rights also.

One of her ears was very swollen. I confronted the father and he admitted to removing them. He and his mother, whom he lives with, claims her ear was infected, that they had called a RN friend to come to the house, and under her suggestion, removed the earrings. The father claims he has 'lost' them.

This father, is under a 1 yr supervised probation. He has a 9 month violation of protective order susupended sentence hanging (my daughters) plus I AND the child have protective orders against him prior to the earring theft. He also has a 4 year deffered sentencing for Larceny and concealing, we were the injured party.

He currently has two warrents out for his arrest: another violation of P.O., and a revocation of suspended sentence signed by a judge.

When I spoke to a police officer on the phone, it took a lot of argueing to push my complaint of earring theft. He kept saying you cannot file against someone who 'lost' something. After argueing my points (i have medical rights, the child and I have protective orders which removal of the earrings violated, etc) the officer filed the complaint. I have since lost the case number, but did write the name down of the female detective who has the case. No court dates have been filed, yet.

I would like to call the detective division and push to have this go through. I am assuming that they can find the complaint with the detectives name, date of complaint, and my name...correct? I am also going to assume that she (detective) will also try to talk me out of this. I need some grounds to work with.

Anybody know of anything? Where should I look for theft case law? Or statutes?

Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[c m chase]

Fair Earring Collection Protection Act?

I can't help ya one bit....sorry. Just wanted to say good luck. This guy sounds like a winner!! Isn't it great when your children get involved with these types??

*hugs*

[copperarab]

Hey Chasey..you're a doll face!! I had to snicker over the 'Fair earring' remark!! LOL!!!!!!!!!

To add a few other pointers to this case to give you REASONS why I am so adament about prosecuting:

These people (father and family) are full-blood Indians. Not to put any race down...but they are the STEREOTYPICAL Indians for this area, ie: Wont work, alcoholics, abuse, drug felonies, poor, etc.... Thats partly how I got the full legal Guardianship.

The bio-father, by court order, is not allowed near my house. He use to come with his mother (who is court-appointed supervisor) to drop the child off after a visit. He would take photos of our house/cars during the dropoffs, or flip me the finger. Within a week or so our cars would be vandalized. We made reports, but didnt have PROOF who did it..so I went out and bought a camers for our driveway.

This guy is abusive and nasty, only 21 yrs old. After the earring incident, I gave his mother a list of items I wanted to be returned that the bio-father has. These were items from my daughter and him living together 6 months prior and items I bought. They included furniture, dishes, microwave, shelves, the baby's bassinett AND the earrings. I gave him 7 days to comply or I would file charges. He didnt give anything back, and when I asked him to his face about it, he just blew me off.

This guy and my daughter moved into our home shortly before the baby was born 2 yrs ago. My husband got him a job at his workplace which the bio-father was fired at 3 months later. We also help them to buy a car that they destroyed.

James, the bio-father, does not pay child support. He is over $4,000 in arrears and the C.S. enforcement is trying to bring him into court. He also refuses to pay any of the medical costs assciated with the baby. One of those are the bills my daughter is being sued for.

I know the earring incident was mostly to get 'one-by-on-me'. If you knew these people you would understand.

Just a bit of info...for your reading pleasure

[willingtocope]

Wow. My best wishes also...

If this guy has two warrants out for his arrest, can't you annonymously tell the cops where to find him?

[copperarab]

Wow. My best wishes also...

If this guy has two warrants out for his arrest, can't you annonymously tell the cops where to find him?

Hey willingtocope...

I have called AND emailed the sheriff's office (on their warrant site) without any luck. I check our court site everyday keeping my fingers crossed that he has been picked up...

I have spoken to his probation officer also w/o any outcome....this time I may go over his head and speak to a supervisor.

Thanks for your reply...

[rodeomom]

I would say it is time for you to be the lawnmower and this jerk to be the grass. Go over whomever's head you need to til you get results.

Might consider paying for an hr's time with a good (by recommendation) lawyer for advice on who to go to in going over PD's heads. In all likely hood you will have to push very hard for this to go anywhere, BUT you should. Hell hath no fury, like a woman pissed off. Do you get SRS or DHS medical card for child? if so do you have good repor with social worker? Maybe they can be of assistance in this area as well. In KS, when our SRS goes after these deadbeats for CS, the child support enforcement agency can often help get social workers moving for help as well.

Sounds like if you can get something going you can get supervised visitations revoked as well.

Good Luck & ((((((((((HUGS)))))))))

[CreditDiva]

These people (father and family) are full-blood Indians. Not to put any race down...but they are the STEREOTYPICAL Indians for this area, ie: Wont work, alcoholics, abuse, drug felonies, poor, etc....

Hmm.. maybe that's why I have stayed single for so long... don't think it is a stereotypical racial thing..just a very common pattern I see across the race lines....wishing you a lot of luck with this, sounds like you have gone out of your way to help but it seems like the world still owes them something..I

[KentWA]

Copper, is the place they live at within the boundaries of any of them many Reservations within OK? This may be why the police are so reluctant to act. Here in Washington there are many areas that are within the boundraies of the Rez, but you would never know it was except for a few smoke shops and the very small sign that says you are entering the Rez. In those cases Tribal Police and Local Police have shared jurisdiction.

What tribe is this guy part of? I might be able to refer you to some contacts that can help you navigate the jurisdictional nightmare that can ensue.

Funny story time. I have twice been pulled over by the State Troopers leaving a smoke shop wanting to nail me for buying non-tax cigg's. When I requested Tribal Police be called to the scene they did not want to, because I did not "Look" indian to to them. Although not a member of the local tribe, they are very protective of "Inter-Tribal Commerce". The Cherokee Nation sticker on the back window of the car, or the Cherokee Nation logo on my jacket did not give the guys a clue I guess. In the last incident the State Patrol commander had to come to the scene to prevent his officer from being arrested by tribal officers, who knew me by the way. I think my license plate is now in the State Patrol database to not pull me over in those situations and it appears they have ended the pratice of trying to pull people over leaving the smoke shops.

[Guest]

In NY state.. part of the treaties they have up here makes it illegal for NY State to charge tax on anything bought on the reservations.

So basically everyone goes to the res to get cigarettes and gas.

Gas is literally 25 cent a gallon cheaper and cigs are about 2-3 dollars cheaper a carton.

OF course now NY state is trying to change the terms of the treaty and people here are throwing a hissy fit.

As if this country didnt screw them enough to begin with.

Oh.. and Copper.. I am not justifying your daughters ex in anyway.. there are good and bad apples of all kinds.

[copperarab]

I would say it is time for you to be the lawnmower and this jerk to be the grass. Go over whomever's head you need to til you get results.

Might consider paying for an hr's time with a good (by recommendation) lawyer for advice on who to go to in going over PD's heads. In all likely hood you will have to push very hard for this to go anywhere, BUT you should. Hell hath no fury, like a woman pissed off. Do you get SRS or DHS medical card for child? if so do you have good repor with social worker? Maybe they can be of assistance in this area as well. In KS, when our SRS goes after these deadbeats for CS, the child support enforcement agency can often help get social workers moving for help as well.

Sounds like if you can get something going you can get supervised visitations revoked as well.

Good Luck & ((((((((((HUGS)))))))))

Hi rodeomom...My granddaughter is under my husbands insurance...so no contacts with DHS...

I tired getting the visitations revoked when I brought the case back into court in late November. For starters, the father has not had paternity established through the courts (tho he has signed an Affivadit at the hospital and had dna testing done) so by state laws, he shouldnt even HAVE visitation. My case is not parent v. parent..it's Guardian v. parent, so the case is treated differently.

It took 8 months to finally have child support take action...then another 3 months to have it changed from my daughters name (as custodian) to my name. CS enforcement already has a judgement on him from a January court date he didnt show for. They currently have a court case filed, but no date as yet to get him on contempt.

Thanks for you reply!

[copperarab]

Copper, is the place they live at within the boundaries of any of them many Reservations within OK? This may be why the police are so reluctant to act. Here in Washington there are many areas that are within the boundraies of the Rez, but you would never know it was except for a few smoke shops and the very small sign that says you are entering the Rez. In those cases Tribal Police and Local Police have shared jurisdiction.

What tribe is this guy part of? I might be able to refer you to some contacts that can help you navigate the jurisdictional nightmare that can ensue.

Funny story time. I have twice been pulled over by the State Troopers leaving a smoke shop wanting to nail me for buying non-tax cigg's. When I requested Tribal Police be called to the scene they did not want to, because I did not "Look" indian to to them. Although not a member of the local tribe, they are very protective of "Inter-Tribal Commerce". The Cherokee Nation sticker on the back window of the car, or the Cherokee Nation logo on my jacket did not give the guys a clue I guess. In the last incident the State Patrol commander had to come to the scene to prevent his officer from being arrested by tribal officers, who knew me by the way. I think my license plate is now in the State Patrol database to not pull me over in those situations and it appears they have ended the pratice of trying to pull people over leaving the smoke shops.

Hey KentWa!! Good story

We have tons of indian smoke shops here, as well as indian gaming casinos...anybody and everybody can use/buy from them...heck I am at the smoke shop usually twice a week!

There isnt any reservations close by. It's not a jurisdictional thing...more like whats more important: a few misdemeanors, or murder? Most of the 1000's of current warrants will sit there until someone is pulled over for a minor traffic ticket...then when they check their status, they'll grab them then. I am going to call his probation officer again today..and demand something be done!

He is full creek indian. He has an indian number, but the baby doesnt...why? We did not want 'them' to have any stronger hold on her than they already have. The child does not look indian at all....light hazel eyes and lt. brown hair.

I know it may sound cruel to say I want him in jail for a while. <shrugs> but I am at least honest about it.

[KentWA]

Copper, A little off topic. Just something to keep in mind for her benifit at a later date, There are a TON of programs set up by the Dept of Ed for tribal members and their children through the regular school systems. Full tutition for Head Start is almost gauranteed, there are programs to provide tutoring, etc once in public school.

When my daughter was struggling in 5th grade she was able to attend tutor session through the school district that helpped her quite a bit. In fact her status (non-tribal member, I was the tribal member) and that of a few other students helpped the district out since the funds were seperate from other funds, so the district was able to added a couple of teachers aides that not only benifited the Native American children, but others as well.

[copperarab]

Copper, A little off topic. Just something to keep in mind for her benifit at a later date, There are a TON of programs set up by the Dept of Ed for tribal members and their children through the regular school systems. Full tutition for Head Start is almost gauranteed, there are programs to provide tutoring, etc once in public school.

When my daughter was struggling in 5th grade she was able to attend tutor session through the school district that helpped her quite a bit. In fact her status (non-tribal member, I was the tribal member) and that of a few other students helpped the district out since the funds were seperate from other funds, so the district was able to added a couple of teachers aides that not only benifited the Native American children, but others as well.

Hi KentWa...I understand this, and will most likely apply for a number for her in the future when she is in a more stable situation. Right now I have legal Guardianship...but either parent can take me to court and revoke it pretty easy. The Creek Nation has already washed their hands of helping the father to get custody of the baby..thank GOD!! I have been building up cases against him, and all of this jail time/felonies/misdemeanors will make it harder for the father to have custody of the child...tho I fear for her safety every week when she goes for her visits.

As far as my daughter..she is in a bad relationship with a drug user, and is a bad parent all together. I will never hand the child over willingly until she gets her act together....but it is up to a judge, not me..

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter!

[MrSmithInWashington]

I have a silly question: is it possible that he removed the earrings because her ears were irritated? Sowwy - it just crossed my mind because you said one lobe was swollen.

[copperarab]

I have a silly question: is it possible that he removed the earrings because her ears were irritated? Sowwy - it just crossed my mind because you said one lobe was swollen.

Hi MrSmith...........That is exactly what happened. She returned home w/o any earrings. One lobe was swollen.

My police report was on the grounds that:

1) I have medical rights to make decisions, they had called an RN to advise what to do. I was never called nor told of the removal ever.

2) The earrings, though not expensive ($40) were of sentimetal value.

They were never returned.

3) Both I and granddaughter have protective orders against the bio-father. It is stated on our orders that defendant cannot harrass, stalk, STEAL, etc.

I am just looking for any cases where this type of 'theft' has ever held any merit.

Thanks!!!

[MrSmithInWashington]

Boy, I don't know...I think that's one of those cases where what happens is going to totally depend on the judges personality. It could be viewed as frivolous, or it could be viewed as continuing past behaviors. It would appear that you only have two choices: small claims for the earrings, or family court for violations of orders.

If the little girls ears were swollen and irritated, and he hadn't removed the earrings, wouldn't he also have been negligent in caring for her? (See where I'm going with this?)

I think you're stuck with small claims. Hope you don't mind me playing devils advocate for the sake of examining the issues.

[copperarab]

Boy, I don't know...I think that's one of those cases where what happens is going to totally depend on the judges personality. It could be viewed as frivolous, or it could be viewed as continuing past behaviors. It would appear that you only have two choices: small claims for the earrings, or family court for violations of orders.

If the little girls ears were swollen and irritated, and he hadn't removed the earrings, wouldn't he also have been negligent in caring for her? (See where I'm going with this?)

I think you're stuck with small claims. Hope you don't mind me playing devils advocate for the sake of examining the issues.

Oh no, Devils Advocate is perfect!! Thats exactly what I need to see if I can come up with any arguement that will hold up in court (if it ever comes to that)

On the subject of 'if the little girls ear was swollen, and he hadnt removed it.....

Arguement for that would be: Granddaughters ears were NOT swollen when she left my care that morning. She has been constantly subjected to rough-housing by the two young boys that live at the home she visits. Granddaughter has sustained many bruises in the past (photos submitted of bruising) and most likely had her earring pulled, etc..by one of the boys. Guardian's modified visitation order dated 11/29/04 specifically states: That the child is to be watched over carefully so no incidents or injury is substained by those in the household. This is a court order!

Also, Guardian has all medical rights and say to the child. She was not called or notified there was a problem with an ear. The RN friend should NOT have been called to investigate the ear and give medical advice w/o the Guardians approval. This is in contempt of the Guardianship Order.

See where I am going with this? The case may still be considered frivolous...true. But there is plenty out there to protect and argue for those that DO owe a debt and 'get away with it', so why not this case? I have court orders up the ying-yang that was violated.

Okay..Your turn again

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrSmithInWashington]

I understand. Family orders must be a nightmare to enforce. I wish you good luck if you pursue it!

[copperarab]

The saturday visit (granddaughter and bio-father) didnt happen...HE WAS ARRESTED!!!!!!!!!

YEAHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He was picked up for the 2nd violation of Protective Order filed Nov. 19th, and for a judges Revocation Of Suspended sentence. I called the jail this weekend, his bond is $5,500. He sees a judge this Monday morning. I will have to wait a bit and see what is posted on the case via the court website.

Unfortunately he is probably going to be bailed out and walking the streets until an official court/hearing date..and the way this guys luck is, he may not see any 'time.'

I am praying and keeping my fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!!!