Paid Fed Tax Lien Question

[virginiacouple147]

Hi, I'm new here (posted intro in OT)

For a few days now I've been trying to search the forum for every tidbit of information I can find on getting a withdrawel of a Federal Lien (IRS) that has been paid. Most of what I have found is addressing liens that are not yet paid.

Here is what I'm seeing - I hope its ok to post this, I made it "generic" as possible, I could not cut and paste the text because its a weird format and when I tried simply typing it out and I was afraid I'd lose some insight that way.

We are not sure where to start with this, ... leave it be, dispute it, I don't suppose there is a "goodwill letter approach" to be had here?

I apologize in advance if I have asked anything blatently obvious that I should have found in a search.... Thanks so much.

By the way we're not even sure what the 1992 thing is... should be a nice target for removal.

[virginiacouple147]

gentle b u m p

[bizwiz41]

Hi, I'm new here (posted intro in OT)

For a few days now I've been trying to search the forum for every tidbit of information I can find on getting a withdrawel of a Federal Lien (IRS) that has been paid. Most of what I have found is addressing liens that are not yet paid.

Here is what I'm seeing - I hope its ok to post this, I made it "generic" as possible, I could not cut and paste the text because its a weird format and when I tried simply typing it out and I was afraid I'd lose some insight that way.

We are not sure where to start with this, ... leave it be, dispute it, I don't suppose there is a "goodwill letter approach" to be had here?

I apologize in advance if I have asked anything blatently obvious that I should have found in a search.... Thanks so much.

By the way we're not even sure what the 1992 thing is... should be a nice target for removal.

Welcome to one of the hardest items to deal with........

1st: Try thr standard dispute process directly with the CRAs. Dispute as "Not Mine", and see what happens. Most likely it will come back "verified", bit you never know.

2nd: If no success with traditional dispute, there is a form and process with the IRS for "Removal of Paid Federal Tax Lien". If you really need it I can search my archives for the IRS web address to take you directly to the form and instructions.

I tried this process myself, to no avail. To go this route with the IRS you have to prove some benefit to the IRS and/or general public for its removal. Again, you have more leverage with NOT paying the lien, and having it removed.

What is very important here is to do some homework before you start these processes:

1) Go to the courthouse where these are filed, and look up the record yourself, and get copies. Make sure it is actually there (hence, can it be verified?)

2) Try to find any documentation that you may have from the start of the lien. The IRS often makes mistakes in filing these, but without the documentation you're lost.

3) Research the IRS website and laws about filing Federal Tax Liens, this gets a bit complicated, but it does help.

I wish you luck, I am still brainstorming how to get mine off, I wish I had learned some of the above before I started. Also, please keep in mind if you try the IRS request for removal process, that it is a lengthy and slow process. Be patient.

If all else fails, and you can afford it, have a tax attorney review your case and hadle it. Again, this is a complicated process from start to finish.

[bizwiz41]

Hi, I'm new here (posted intro in OT)

For a few days now I've been trying to search the forum for every tidbit of information I can find on getting a withdrawel of a Federal Lien (IRS) that has been paid. Most of what I have found is addressing liens that are not yet paid.

Here is what I'm seeing - I hope its ok to post this, I made it "generic" as possible, I could not cut and paste the text because its a weird format and when I tried simply typing it out and I was afraid I'd lose some insight that way.

We are not sure where to start with this, ... leave it be, dispute it, I don't suppose there is a "goodwill letter approach" to be had here?

I apologize in advance if I have asked anything blatently obvious that I should have found in a search.... Thanks so much.

By the way we're not even sure what the 1992 thing is... should be a nice target for removal.

Welcome to one of the hardest items to deal with........

1st: Try thr standard dispute process directly with the CRAs. Dispute as "Not Mine", and see what happens. Most likely it will come back "verified", bit you never know.

2nd: If no success with traditional dispute, there is a form and process with the IRS for "Removal of Paid Federal Tax Lien". If you really need it I can search my archives for the IRS web address to take you directly to the form and instructions.

I tried this process myself, to no avail. To go this route with the IRS you have to prove some benefit to the IRS and/or general public for its removal. Again, you have more leverage with NOT paying the lien, and having it removed.

What is very important here is to do some homework before you start these processes:

1) Go to the courthouse where these are filed, and look up the record yourself, and get copies. Make sure it is actually there (hence, can it be verified?)

2) Try to find any documentation that you may have from the start of the lien. The IRS often makes mistakes in filing these, but without the documentation you're lost.

3) Research the IRS website and laws about filing Federal Tax Liens, this gets a bit complicated, but it does help.

I wish you luck, I am still brainstorming how to get mine off, I wish I had learned some of the above before I started. Also, please keep in mind if you try the IRS request for removal process, that it is a lengthy and slow process. Be patient.

If all else fails, and you can afford it, have a tax attorney review your case and hadle it. Again, this is a complicated process from start to finish.

[virginiacouple147]

Bizwiz - thank you so so much for your reply!!!

Yes, I'm beginning to see that you have more leverage when you actually owe lol (which is hurting us in several scenarios).

I think we'll do the verification route first after we deal with some of the easier things and if that doesn't work we can look into the process of asking the IRS to do something - my hubby does have a security clearance and altho it obviously didn't hurt him during this specific clearance there are other clearances he could be denied because of this (this is the worst thing on his report)... he has his own business so he may be offered opportunities that would lead him to needing a higher clearance.

Still I'm not sure if they would feel motivated in any way to do anything about it

Good luck with yours too!!!

[bizwiz41]

Bizwiz - thank you so so much for your reply!!!

Yes, I'm beginning to see that you have more leverage when you actually owe lol (which is hurting us in several scenarios).

I think we'll do the verification route first after we deal with some of the easier things and if that doesn't work we can look into the process of asking the IRS to do something - my hubby does have a security clearance and altho it obviously didn't hurt him during this specific clearance there are other clearances he could be denied because of this (this is the worst thing on his report)... he has his own business so he may be offered opportunities that would lead him to needing a higher clearance.

Still I'm not sure if they would feel motivated in any way to do anything about it

Again, I would take the time to visit the courthouse where this is filed before you do the dispute. Verify what is actually filed, this will give you better leverage when the dispute results come back.

As for the damage of a lien on your report; I've noticed it only seems to hurt if you are applying for a mortgage (for obvious reasons!). To me it was devastating, but in every review of my CRs by creditors, they never seemed to be phased by it. Mine also was a result of a business venture I owned.

Again, do the homework first, then try disputing. I have heard of many cases in these forums where people had them deleted by disputing them. If it comes back "verified", you then can pursue the process of the CRAs proving how they verified, and was it legal. Most of the CRAs "verifying" for Federal Tax Liens are public information website searches, and these do NOT fulfill the legal requirement of contacting the "Original Creditor".

Good Luck

Good luck with yours too!!!

[virginiacouple147]

Excellent, thank you again for taking the time to reply -- I greatly appreciate it...even knowing we're not the only ones with this is for some reason ... reassuring... "misery loves company???" ... I am very sorry you are also dealing with this.

By the way we did get a mortgage with this 3 years ago - its a subprime for various reasons but all they asked for was a copy of the release. I'm not sure it would have been subprime had that been the only issue. For us ...other than feeling the stigma of being subprime we're actually OK with the higher payments because its mostly interest and we desperately need the tax breaks lol (low overhead on the biz) plus the house has had a huge increase in equity confirms that we did well to get in on the equity ladder when we did.

[Iamwhatiam]

Yes, I'm beginning to see that you have more leverage when you actually owe lol (which is hurting us in several scenarios).

Can you explain why this is more advantageous?The reason I ask is that my tax lien situation is VERY complicated, and I really don't know how to approach it. I would like to post my situation and than my questions.

Here is my situation.

1. Tax Lien one was filed in 2000 and a portion of it was discharged through my BK in 2000. It was filed in IL, I now live in NY.

2. Tax Lien two was filed in 2001, in a different county in IL and again, I now live in NY.

3. For a year now, I have been paying the IRS faithfully in an installment agreement. And a good amount of what those tax liens include have been paid off.

4. I spoke with a tax attorney and was told that tax liens that pre-date BK filings are still valid.

I have been able to get some of the tax liens removed from my CR's via "not mine". However, TU is still verifying both of them.

Now, should I contact the Court Houses to veryify?

And do you think that the IRS would be willing to remove these liens - considering that I no longer live in IL, and have paid down a lot of the liens, and have been paying as agreed in my installment agreement with them, especially if I make the argument that to remove them would allow me the ability to pay them off more quickly?

I know this is a lot to digest, and anyone who is willing to digest it and offer some advice, I would truly appreciate it. Especially since this is my first post.

[virginiacouple147]

Hi "IamwhatIam" - welcome to the board, I'm also new here ... er maybe you've been here a while and are only a new poster, I dunno:)

At any rate... I don't know anything about how BK will affect all of this, I know very little about all of this because I have been reading for a couple of weeks and tend to skim for scenarios that match ours specifically or closely.

The reason I said that you have more leverage when you actually owe is because under certain circumstances the IRS may be willing to withdraw a lien...

(I got this from the irs website)

"Withdrawing Liens

By law, a filed notice of tax lien can be withdrawn if:

The notice was filed too soon or not according to IRS procedures,

You entered into an installment agreement to pay the debt on the notice of lien (unless the agreement provides otherwise),

Withdrawal will speed collecting the tax, or

Withdrawal would be in your best interest (as determined by the Taxpayer Advocate), and in the best interest of the government"

I'm sure all of that is complicated with a big bow of red tape on top but it seems to me that the most utilized of those options would be when people actually owe something so the IRS would have more incentive to help them in order to get their money faster - I am only speculating here. Then its a win-win for the IRS and you.

Also my comment was in reference to the fact that we don't have any charge offs or judgements .... and everything is up to date,...so we have no "leverage" with any of our creditors...basically we're begging goodwill from people as a first measure and asking creditors with whom we have a perfect limit with to correctly report actual credit limits and remove "negative sounding" verbage such as "closed by grantor" when it was actually closed by my husband.

We have major "pesky" clean up to do although most accounts look wonderful and we have no defaults.. in addition to this paid lien , ugh.

Please don't take anything I say as fact lol - like I said I'm really new here!!

GOODLUCK!!!!!!

[Iamwhatiam]

Thank you! That was encouraging!

I know about the Tax Advocate program and I was thinking of contacting them about this issue. My reasoning is that they cannot collect on a lien where I no longer live and hence have no assests, and I have been showing good faith by paying the installment plan and since part of the liens have been paid, it is sort of null anyway.

I am not sure if I should try to go through the Tax Advocate myself or re-contact my tax attorney, who still has power of attorney for me, but costs $300 an hour.

[bizwiz41]

Yes, I'm beginning to see that you have more leverage when you actually owe lol (which is hurting us in several scenarios).

Can you explain why this is more advantageous?The reason I ask is that my tax lien situation is VERY complicated, and I really don't know how to approach it. I would like to post my situation and than my questions.

Here is my situation.

1. Tax Lien one was filed in 2000 and a portion of it was discharged through my BK in 2000. It was filed in IL, I now live in NY.

2. Tax Lien two was filed in 2001, in a different county in IL and again, I now live in NY.

3. For a year now, I have been paying the IRS faithfully in an installment agreement. And a good amount of what those tax liens include have been paid off.

4. I spoke with a tax attorney and was told that tax liens that pre-date BK filings are still valid.

I have been able to get some of the tax liens removed from my CR's via "not mine". However, TU is still verifying both of them.

Now, should I contact the Court Houses to veryify?

And do you think that the IRS would be willing to remove these liens - considering that I no longer live in IL, and have paid down a lot of the liens, and have been paying as agreed in my installment agreement with them, especially if I make the argument that to remove them would allow me the ability to pay them off more quickly?

I know this is a lot to digest, and anyone who is willing to digest it and offer some advice, I would truly appreciate it. Especially since this is my first post.

The wrinkle in your situation is that you have already entered into an installment agreement; and unless you stipulated the clause of NOT reporting, and/or filing a lien, it is most likely too late to request removal.

You may have a case to make that you were not informed fully at the time of entering into agreement. You may be able to make a case that you could pay off any balance BY BORROWING, but a negative listing on your credit report will hurt or prevent that option.

You could also try to amend the agreement to remove any filed lien(s). You may have a chance. As for legal responsibility regarding residency and filing state, that does not matter. A federal IRS lien is in effect no matter where you live. They would only have to catch up to where you reside now. Most liens are filed in the county and state where you reside at time of filing.

Your case is really not that complicated; except it seems that there are more than one liens you are talking about. Overall, the process is the process. Again, the most leverage you have (regarding lien filings and credit reports) is before you do anything or pay anything.

[Iamwhatiam]

Thank you, I understand what you are saying and I kinda thought as much.

Yes the two tax liens are for the same tax years, for the most part. So I don't know how that effects anything.

I entered into the installment agreement last year, and as I mentioned these liens were filed back in 2001/2001. And I don't remember getting letters from the IRS. But, the point is moot.

Unfortunately, I owe the IRS more money that any personal loan would cover at this point in time, and I realize that puts a whole in my argument.

I think the best thing to do, and tell me if you agree, is to continue the dispute process with the CRA's. When I disputed it with Equifax, the results said one was released, and I was able to get them to delete it. And Experian couldn't verify one of the liens and promptly deleted. I think I need to just keep on trying.

I understand what you are saying about the tax liens and state residency. My tax attorney told me that if someone checked to see if I had liens, they would most likely only check the databases in my current county.

[virginiacouple147]

I didn't want to start a new thread on this - so I hope it still gets some action;)

I realized this morning that the paid federal tax lien that is reported on my husband's CR has the wrong release date, it was filed in 1995, paid off (installment) in 2000 and it is reporting as released in 10/2002 - I know it was released before then because we had to give a copy of the release to our mortgage guys when we bought our house which closed in 9/2002 - obviously we had the papers in hand well before 9/2002 - so should we dispute it? Dispute on what grounds, wrong date, not mine? Online or via letter to the CRA? What is the worst case..they just update the date to reflect a different release date? Best case would be it disappeared huh? yeah I'm not holding my breath for that although it'd be nice

Thanks for listening.

[Iamwhatiam]

If it were me, I would dispute it as "not mine" first. You never know it might just get deleted.

If it is verified, I would wait a month or two and then call them and tell them that the date is inaccurate. When calling any customer service line, I always hang up if the rep has a heavy foreign accent and then redial until I get an operator who sounds friendly and intelligent.