Illegal collection activity?

[sjokinley]

I just found out yesterday (Tue) one of my hospital bills was placed with a CA. My 30 day dispute period expires tomorrow (Thur). I verbally requested dispute, then immediately sent certified written request-they should have it by tomorrow. On the phone they told me the acct. will be reported to CRA's tomorrow even if I dispute. I tried to argue that was illegal collection activity but they said no, it's not. Who's right? And if it's me can someone give me the statute # or violation # or whatever it is? Please?

[unusualsuspect]

You need to dispute the bill in WRITING. You'll need a paper trail if the CA breaks the law.

Get an address and overnight the letter or get a fax number. But either way, the dispute needs to be written.

[Robert Nashville/Savannah]

To the best of my knowledge it is not "illegal" for a collector and/or the original creditor to report the account to the bureaus provided they report accurately whether you dispute it or not and regardless of "when" you start the dispute/validation process.

However, if you dispute it, then they must reflect that in their reporting to the bureau.

If I may be blunt, I would suggest you concentrate on dealing with the debt and not be overly concerned with what is or isn't reported to the bureaus...if this is a legitimate debt (and you didn't say anything that would indicate otherwise) then you will eventually have to address the debt...just my $0.02

[SecretAgentWoman]

The funny thing about hospital bills is, they'll take any payment plan. They are not creditors, and they are used to people being surprised by unexpected medical expenditures. They will work with you. I've never had an issue.

So, I am flabbergasted that it would get to collections at all. I mean, $25 a month would hold them off while you disputed any charges you felt were wrong. Assuming your dispute is in good faith...

[Ahntara]

"...hospital bills...they'll take any payment plan..."

This USED to be SOP. You could keep yourself out of collections by sending any amount monthly. Not so any more. Many medical service providers turn consumers over to collections automatically often before the bills have a chance to be submitted to insurance.

Hospitals are also filing suit against the estate of terminally ill patients prior to death to ensure payment. It's not unusual for the families of organ donors to find their loved one's estate tied up not even be able to get the deceased buried. It should be illegal; but it's not. It's par for the course in modern medical fiscal policy. Ugh!

[someonesomewhere]

This USED to be SOP. You could keep yourself out of collections by sending any amount monthly. Not so any more. Many medical service providers turn consumers over to collections automatically often before the bills have a chance to be submitted to insurance.

I think this has been ebbing and flowing a bit over the past couple of years. SWMBO and I were living in PA a couple of years ago. One provider there got a little nasty, and as a rule they seemed more adamant there about getting paid.

Got one bill that was $70 and change. Checked my insurance company's website to see that the claim was processed and the amount the provider said I owed was in fact the amount I owed. Job I was working did payroll weekly, so every Friday was payday and I had direct deposit. I set up on billpay outta my bank to send it automatically. Paid 'em $10 (plus whatever the change was), then set up $15 a week for 4 weeks. They'd get PIF in a month, no checks to write, no stamps to buy, and I don't have to think about it.

The first $10 check cleared near the end of the month, and I get an automated phone call at home stating "If you do not pay at least $25 a month on this account, it will be referred to a collection agency."

No. Oh H*LL NO! No they did not. Oh yes they did. OK, fine.

Called back, left a polite but firm message stating, to the effect, "I received your message. I set up billpay payments to pay you off at $15 a week over the next 4 weeks, but instead I will accept your proposal and repay you at $25 a month and repay you over the next 3 months. Perhaps you'll think twice now about being so nasty in dealing with people. You could have been PIF in 4 weeks. Now it's going to take 3 months. Hope it was worth it for ya. Gotta go change the frequency and amounts of my billpay payments to you. Have a nice day."

Had a couple of hospital visits cost several hundred dollars each. One in PA. Another in WA. Couple of semi threatening phone calls about collections. Called 'em up, usually after I'd already sent 'em the first payment for whatever amount I had determined I was going to pay 'em and said, "I don't have the full amount otherwise I would have already paid it in full. If I had more to pay you up front, I would have already sent you that. I sent you $X because $X a month is what I can afford to pay. Seems awful dumb for you to threaten suing me or referring this to a collection agency. The CA will take part of the money, and you'll get PIF by me a lot sooner than you'll get paid partially by a CA. Your lawyer is gonna want more money up front than what you'll get from me if you just accept payments. As for credit, what are you going to do? Staple something to my credit report?"

Credit to comedian D. L. Hughley for that last one. I believe the exact quote was, "Whatcha gonna do? Staple some sh*t to my credit report?"

Tailor it to each situation. If they aren't verbally nasty on the phone or in voicemail message, then I tend to excuse threatening sounding letters as they are but form letters. Be nice to me, and I'll reciprocate.

If they try to do the tough guy thing, I push 'em back just enough. For me, and I've had to talk to doctor's offices or hospitals like this probably 4 to 5 times, they'll work with me, take payments, and generally accept whatever terms I verbally dictate.

I believe that is the key with medical bills. Go on the offensive and be proactive. You wouldn't be here in CIC if you weren't at least a little bit proactive and a little bit of a self starter. Others would just call a lawyer or pay off a CA.

Also be reasonable. If you owe a hospital $10K, they probably aren't going to accept $1 a month until it's paid. OTOH, I've paid off $600 to $900 hospital bills at $50 a month and with no monthly interest or fees.

Getting on a verbal payment plan with the OC, IMHO, is the best course of action. If you ask for something in writing, they are probably going to want credit card numbers or bank account numbers so they can do automatic drafts. If you ask for permission to tape the phone call, I suspect they are likely to send it on to a CA.

It's my experience that medical professionals by their nature wanna help people. These aren't seasoned, lowlife, boiler room collectors. They are probably nurses. The nurses I know ain't no pushover, but with money and bills they will probably work with ya and accept terms you dictate.

Finally, if your employer offers it, consider putting money in an FSA. The IRS rules make it use or lose, so be aware of your medical needs, expenses, etc. and follow the advice of estimating conservatively. SWMBO and I take maintenance meds and we have kids. Those add a bit to one's annual medical expenses.

This is now my 4th year putting money in an FSA. Last year I maxed out the account by June. Last year's plan was much better because I was given two debit cards, one for me and one for SWMBO, to use for medical expenses. It was sweet. Didn't have to come off of ANY money up front. Just put it on the card.

Hospitals are also filing suit against the estate of terminally ill patients prior to death to ensure payment. It's not unusual for the families of organ donors to find their loved one's estate tied up not even be able to get the deceased buried. It should be illegal; but it's not. It's par for the course in modern medical fiscal policy. Ugh!

Some are selling their organs for profit. It's OK for hospitals, but not the consumer.

[Cole]

I too had a medical bill go into collection that I was paying on. Long story short, I had health insurance suddenly, and without warning OR notice, it was yanked. I had no idea. I went to the doc.... next thing I know, I have about $2000 in bills coming in between the docs office, bloodwork lab, etc.

In the end, 2 of the 3 bills were just fine with me paying them off monthly. I sent letters explaining the situation, and how much I could afford, and all was good. Except with the third. From day 1 they said "we don't accept partial payments", etc etc... yet they happily cashed my check every month. I kept sending them payments with letters, thinking it was all bluster trying to get me to pay the balance in full. 6 months or so later, they send me off to collections.

Now, I'm an a$$... I'm a little TOO proactive. When this happend, they got a nasty letter from me basically saying they wouldn't get a bleeding dime out of me now. I also DV'd the CA when they sent a letter, and I havent heard a word out of either since. But I mean it. The remaining balance is around $350 I think. And I won't pay a dime now. They were getting regular, reasonable payments just like the other 2 bills... by acting the way they did, they now get nothing. (and yes, the other 2 bills have long since been paid off. )

[Ahntara]

someone...

I appreciate you sharing your story and tactics. You are right about many things; including the fact that medical providers are not hard-boiled 'collect at any price' people. Many will accept payments and work with consumers. I would add that this works MUCH BETTER when you make PRIOR arrangements. It pays to be proactive in more ways than one.

People who get huffy about collections usually don't get it. Universally, medical debts are due at time of service. I've seen this notice posted in all medical offices, or in their consent forms, for the last 30 years. The providers have no duty to submit your claim to insurance, wait for payment (from them or you) or work with you afterward. They are due their money RIGHT THEN. Consumers always come out ahead when they acknowledge this and then work toward a positive conclusion that is win-win for both sides...

One other note. Be sure to request a discount if you pay with cash (no insurance). Many providers will not only take payments with prior arrangements, but also deeply reduce the amount owed. Hey, they do that for insurance companies...

[someonesomewhere]

Universally, medical debts are due at time of service. I've seen this notice posted in all medical offices, or in their consent forms, for the last 30 years. The providers have no duty to submit your claim to insurance, wait for payment (from them or you) or work with you afterward.

I'm not entirely sure that's always true.

In some cases with in network providers, providers are only permitted to demand the Copayment up front and the provider will only receive $X for the services provided from the insurance--even if the provider customarily charges more for that particular service.

I've had a couple of instances in which a provider wanted money up front, dentists usually, I paid up, but when the EOB came it turns out they had charged me more than they were permitted to charge under their agreement with insurance. In one case, about $350 more. Checked with insurance and they confirmed that I should have only been charged $X and not $Y. Said if there were any questions or problems to call them back, and they would give the provider a call. Anymore and I politely ask them whether they can submit the claim to insurance, and I'll pay what I owe when they process the claim.

When in doubt check with one's insurance company as I've found them generally willing to help and answer questions about benefits and payments owed. Some plans cap charges in network providers can charge while others do not.

When going in or scheduling a doctor's or dentist's office visit, I also ask, "Could you check to see whether there's a credit on my account?" There's been a time or two when the insurance company kicked back to the provider saying, "Heh, you overcharged this patient by $X." But the provider didn't volunteer that information to me.

As always, it pays to be nice in this area as well. "Hi, I think I there may now be a credit on my account. Could I speak with some in billing? Thanks."

This will go over a lot better than, "You rat finks overcharged me! Don't you vampires get enough blood outta me!?!?!"

[Ahntara]

Patients, or their legal guardians, are responsible for payment of their medical bills, regardless of insurance coverage. Consumers sometimes mistakenly believe that having coverage means the medical service provider must wait for payment. That is simply not true. They submit insurance forms as a courtesy and a normal manner of doing business. But this in no way mitigates a patients duty to pay. Whether in network or covered at all, payment is due at the time of service unless prior arrangements have been made.

This is why it's not illegal for an unpaid bill or co-payment to be automatically transferred/sold to collections without (other) notification. Consumers are expected to know that they are to pay their own bills, even if covered by insurance policies.

[divemedic]

To the best of my knowledge it is not "illegal" for a collector and/or the original creditor to report the account to the bureaus provided they report accurately whether you dispute it or not and regardless of "when" you start the dispute/validation process.

A collector MUST cease all collection activity upon receipt of a timely DV. Collection activity includes reporting to the CRA. Reporting a TL to the CRA after receipt of a timely DV, but before sending validation to a consumer is a violation of the FDCPA.

[sjokinley]

Thanks Divemedic-that's what I thought. I'm not planning on filing against them because the lady I spoke to is actually pretty nice, but it still made me mad.

I am goodwilling the hospital trying to remove the bill from collections so hopefully that will work. The thing is, I have at least fifteen hospital and doctor bills currently needing payment, and I just can't pay them all every month. Being in a car accident with an uninsured driver at fault can really, really hurt-in more ways than one. No way to sue someone with even less than me.

You know, on second thought, what would the violation # for this be, Dive? Why should I be nice, they rarely are. And should I send them an ITS as soon as this hits my CR? If they are going to validate before reporting, will they have to send it CMRRR as proof of validation?

[sjokinley]

Update on this-

I wrote a goodwill letter to the CEO of the hospital the same day I sent dv request to the CA. I got a letter from the CEO today saying he'd forwarded my request to the Director of Patient Financial Services. Two hours later I got a call from the DRFS offic e saying they'd written off my debt and would recall it from collections. A small victory for the little guy!!