After DV, they're still contacting me!

[simplysilky]

Ok, so I DV'd a CA, NFS, on a repo. I got the green card back today. When I get home and check my phone messages, there is a recording from NFS that says "Don't miss out on this settlement offer Opportunity!!--Call us and see what kind of deal we can give you!"....

Are they still able to contact me after they recvd that DV letter? My letter stated not to contact me unless they have proof of me owning this debt.

[unusualsuspect]

No they can't contact you unless they can provide validation of the debt.

[gbe]

No they can't contact you unless they can provide validation of the debt.

Only if the DV is timely - that is, sent within 30 days of receipt of the initial communication with the CA. If timely, the CA must cease collection activity and report the account as disputed until they validate the debt. If not a timely DV, then the creditor only must report the account as disputed - they can still contact you.

[unusualsuspect]

What I was referring to was his C&D in the DV letter. Simply's letter probably read something like "don't contact until you can validate the debt."

In that case, they were ignoring the C&D language in the letter. In which case, there is at least one FDCPA violation.

[gbe]

Ah, gotcha. I had missed that portion altogether. There have been many discussions on the merits of the so-called "Limited C&D". Most opinion seems to be that a CA could follow the instruction to be nice, but that there is nothing in the law to prevent them from disregarding it. I'm not sure that simplysilky's letter doesn't fall into that gray category because of the conditional "unless you have proof of me owning this debt" phrase.

The other possibility is that his phrasing was sufficient notice for them to stop communications completely, which would indeed mean that the phone call is a violation. It also means that the DV can't be answered.

The board elders will have a much clearer view than I on this (and likely a more correct one).

[willingtocope]

No they can't contact you unless they can provide validation of the debt.

Not true. They can contact you one more time to tell you what their intents is.

[simplysilky]

I did have that clause--here is a copy of the letter.

Mrs. Simplysilky

123 Credit Rebuild Drive

Bite Me, Somewhere 69696

NFS

600 W. John Street

PO Box 9046

Hicksville, NY 11802

April 20, 2007

Re: Acct # XXX

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is being sent to you in response to a phone call to me on April 11, 2007. Be advised that this is not a refusal to pay, but a notice sent pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, 15 USC 1692g Sec. 809 ( that your claim is disputed and validation is requested.

This is NOT a request for “verification” or proof of my mailing address, but a request for VALIDATION made pursuant to the above named Title and Section. I respectfully request that your offices provide me with competent evidence that I have any legal obligation to pay you.

Please provide me with the following:

What the money you say I owe is for;

Explain and show me how you calculated what you say I owe;

Provide me with copies of any papers that show I agreed to pay what you say I owe;

Provide a verification or copy of any judgment if applicable;

Identify the original creditor;

Prove the Statute of Limitations has not expired on this account

Show me that you are licensed to collect in my state

Provide me with your license numbers and Registered Agent

At this time I will also inform you that if your offices have reported invalidated information to any of the 3 major Credit Bureau’s (Equifax, Experian or TransUnion) this action might constitute fraud under both Federal and State Laws. Due to this fact, if any negative mark is found on any of my credit reports by your company or the company that you represent I will not hesitate in bringing legal action against you for the following:

Violation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act - reporting inaccurate information

Violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act - continuing collection activity on a debt which has not been validated

Also during this validation period, if any action is taken which could be considered detrimental to any of my credit reports, I will consult with my legal counsel for suit. This includes any listing any information to a credit reporting repository that could be inaccurate or invalidated or verifying an account as accurate when in fact there is no provided proof that it is.

REQUEST FOR CEASE AND DESIST OF CONTACT BY YOUR OFFICE: I would also like to request, in writing, no further contact, either in writing or telephone be made by your offices to my home or to my place of employment, unless it is to provide validation or release of liability of the debt. If your offices attempt telephone communication with me, including but not limited to computer generated calls and calls or correspondence sent to or with any third parties, it will be considered harassment and I will have no choice but to file suit.

It would be advisable that you assure that your records are in order before I am forced to take legal action. This is an attempt to correct your records, any information obtained shall be used for that purpose.

Best Regards,

Mrs. Simplysilky

[divemedic]

You have no idea how much I have grown to despise that form letter. I think that letter does more to confuse debtors, and hurt credit repair...

[simplysilky]

damned if I do, damned if I don't...

I guess I messed up with that letter then.

[simplysilky]

So, when they call me again, and it may be to validate the claim via the letter I sent them....what if they can't validate? Should I hang up the phone or what should I say?

[jestor1776]

Simplysilk, in the future you can use a DV form letter that I use with success. HOWEVER, and I can't stress this enough, if you really want to be able to argue the points you raise regarding debt validation please don't copy and paste. My experience has taught me that if you use a form letter as an outline to write from you will be in a much better position to understand what it is your writting and explain what is writen. With that said here is a copy of one of the letters I use as an outline for a dispute letter:

Your Name (print certified mail number here)

Your address

City, state, zip code

The name of the person who sent you the collection letter

Their address

City, state, zip

Sir or Madam:

You are in receipt of notice under the authority of The Fair Debt Collections Practices Act regarding your file #XXXXXXXXXXX #OOOOOOO 000000 RMS008. It is not now, nor has it ever been my intention to avoid paying any obligation that I lawfully owe. In order that I can make arrangements to pay an obligation which I may owe, please document and verify the “debt” by complying in good faith with this request for validation and notice that I dispute part of, or all of the alleged debt.

1. Please furnish a copy of the original promissory note redacting my social security number to prevent identify theft and state under penalty of perjury that your client named above is the holder in due course of the promissory note and will produce the original for my own and a judge’s inspection should there be a trial to contest these matters.

2. Please produce the account and general ledger statement showing the full accounting of the alleged obligation that you are now attempting to collect.

3. Please identify by name and address all persons, corporations, associations, or any other parties having an interest in legal proceedings regarding the alleged debt.

4. Please verify under penalty of perjury, that as a debt collector, you have not purchased evidence of debt and are proceeding with collection activity in the name of the original maker of the note.

5. Please verify under penalty of perjury that you know and understand that certain clauses in a contract of adhesion, such as a so-called forum selection clause, are unenforceable unless the party to whom the contract is extended could have rejected the clause without impunity.

6. Please verify under penalty of perjury that you know and understand that credit card contracts are a series of continuing offers to contract and as such are non-transferable.

7. Please provide verification from the stated creditor that you are authorized to act for them.

8. Please verify that you know and understand that contacting me again after receipt of this notice without providing procedurally proper validation of the debt constitutes the use of interstate communications in a scheme of fraud by advancing a writing, which you know is false with the intention that others rely on the written communication to their detriment.

Disputing the “debt”

Your signature

Your name

(month day year)

CC:

Consumer Response Center

Federal Trade Commission

Washington, D.C. 20580

I hope this helps!

FM

[simplysilky]

Simplysilk, in the future you can use a DV form letter that I use with success. HOWEVER, and I can't stress this enough, if you really want to be able to argue the points you raise regarding debt validation please don't copy and paste. My experience has taught me that if you use a form letter as an outline to write from you will be in a much better position to understand what it is your writting and explain what is writen. With that said here is a copy of one of the letters I use as an outline for a dispute letter:

Your Name (print certified mail number here)

Your address

City, state, zip code

The name of the person who sent you the collection letter

Their address

City, state, zip

Sir or Madam:

You are in receipt of notice under the authority of The Fair Debt Collections Practices Act regarding your file #XXXXXXXXXXX #OOOOOOO 000000 RMS008. It is not now, nor has it ever been my intention to avoid paying any obligation that I lawfully owe. In order that I can make arrangements to pay an obligation which I may owe, please document and verify the “debt” by complying in good faith with this request for validation and notice that I dispute part of, or all of the alleged debt.

1. Please furnish a copy of the original promissory note redacting my social security number to prevent identify theft and state under penalty of perjury that your client named above is the holder in due course of the promissory note and will produce the original for my own and a judge’s inspection should there be a trial to contest these matters.

2. Please produce the account and general ledger statement showing the full accounting of the alleged obligation that you are now attempting to collect.

3. Please identify by name and address all persons, corporations, associations, or any other parties having an interest in legal proceedings regarding the alleged debt.

4. Please verify under penalty of perjury, that as a debt collector, you have not purchased evidence of debt and are proceeding with collection activity in the name of the original maker of the note.

5. Please verify under penalty of perjury that you know and understand that certain clauses in a contract of adhesion, such as a so-called forum selection clause, are unenforceable unless the party to whom the contract is extended could have rejected the clause without impunity.

6. Please verify under penalty of perjury that you know and understand that credit card contracts are a series of continuing offers to contract and as such are non-transferable.

7. Please provide verification from the stated creditor that you are authorized to act for them.

8. Please verify that you know and understand that contacting me again after receipt of this notice without providing procedurally proper validation of the debt constitutes the use of interstate communications in a scheme of fraud by advancing a writing, which you know is false with the intention that others rely on the written communication to their detriment.

Disputing the “debt”

Your signature

Your name

(month day year)

CC:

Consumer Response Center

Federal Trade Commission

Washington, D.C. 20580

I hope this helps!

FM

Yes! That helps alot! I wish I saw this before sending mine! Thanks again and I will remember to use this from now on!

[jestor1776]

Simplysilky,

My pleasure! If you need any other help or questions fell free to ask.

May the Lord bless you and guide you in you search for truth!

Yours for Liberty!

FM

[chilton1]

do you really want your contact info to be public? I would remove and send it PM.

[divemedic]

Long wordy letters in which you attempt to sound like an attorney are not going to work any better than just a normal one. Be careful with these legalese filled letters. They won't impress anyone.

If they lie to you it cannot be "under penalty of perjury"- violation of the FDCPA, yes. Perjury? No.

That letter is ridiculous. The CA is not required to send you all of that.

[jestor1776]

Divemedic,

I'm sorry you disapprove of my example, however, making a claim that: "the type of information within my letter is "ridiculous" and "will not work", is ONLY your opinion. If you can provwe my method is somehow in error, please explain with specific reasons. If you choose to use a different approach to correspond with the CA/DC that works better for your understanding and writing skills great use it! However, I don't make it a habit to discredit or attack someone else's approach or technique without first researching it. If I see somone say or write someting that I believe based on my own knowledge and understanding which is not correct or proper, I would at least kindly explain why I believed they were wrong. Therefore, it is possible (not probable) that some could view my approach as wordy (maybe), because I work in the legal field. However, I do what I know works for me and I am willing to share my information with others who ask for it. Also, I do not condone or imply that my way is the best way. I am merely trying to provide useful examples for someone who is having trouble with debt collectors. Even though, you do not know me, my life or my abilites, I can honestly tell you my approach does in fact work for me at least, but I also realize there is NO letter that can be viewed as the "SILVER BULLET" no matter how simple or wordy it is. Sometime you are forced to go to court, which I have, but I am smart enough to know no matter how or the way you respond, there is no "silver bullet" letter that works for everyone. We deal with people every day. Some people scare easily,and some do not. Some people respond to reason and some do not. It is a crap shoot when it comes to challenging someone else's belief of what our alleged obligation is or isn't. That's why facts and evidence are the determining factor whether we win or loose

BTW. Instead of casting doubt upon the minds of men or women who read this forum, wouldn't it be more productive to perhaps show me your method of responding to DC/CA, and explain to me why you think your way is better so we all might benefit?

FM

[divemedic]

First, and most obviously, since you "work in the legal field" you could explain how a CA can possibly be forced to answer your letter "on penalty of perjury"

[jestor1776]

Divermedic,

I never at anytime claimed that the a Debt collector or collection agency will answer or could be forced to answer my letter. However, I write my letters in such a way that if I do actually owe the alleged obligation they claim, then they should have no problem answering my questions and provide me with proof of their claims. I nor anyone else can force anyone to do anything short of being threatened with bodily harm or imprisionment. That is why in most cases, when someone disputes an alleged debt the creditor, CA or DC proceeds against them in court, to get a judgment which can be enforced by the court. However, in most ALL the cases I have ever seen, there is NO competent evidence which would substantiate a remedy in favor of the CA/DC. There are many othe issues which need addressed but this is but one.

Again, I can't make anyone answer my requests for verification or validation, but I am builing an administrative record to be used as evidence in court if the need arises. I can admit into evidence that the debt collector, upon my request to validate the debt, either failed or refused to answer my questions and provide proof of their claim against me. I am showing the court that I have attempted to setlle this dispute in good faith and the CA/DC did not show why they were damaged and are not entitled to judgment as a result of my failure to pay an alleged debt obligation. In order to get a judgment you must be able to prove you were damaged, or suffered a loss of some kind.

I realize that there are some people who don't like wordy or letters filled with legalize or big words and such, however I don't think that my letters are that confusing or technical for the average reader. What really matters is, does the reader understand what the letter is saying and How am I best establishing an admisnistrative record for future reference. If I offended you I apologize, that is not my intention.

Best Regards,

FM

[Tazjeepcj7]

Simplysilky, if you receive a telephone call, tell the collector you want all communications in writing and then hang up. If the CA continues to call, you may want to start a log to list each call by date and time.

[simplysilky]

Simplysilky, if you receive a telephone call, tell the collector you want all communications in writing and then hang up. If the CA continues to call, you may want to start a log to list each call by date and time.

OH MY GOODNESS!!!!

The CA just called me SCREAMING THEIR HEADS OFF and saying I BETTER PAY THIS OR I'LL BE IN BIG TROUBLE!! He also said HE HATES MY KIND OF DEBTORS!!! And then he slammed the phone down!! Initially, when they called, they were acting stupid saying they were not aware of any dv letter, they he says where did I send it? I told him the NY office and he says Man, I don't know why they didn't send it to him. He said it was no problem sending me the requested documents (to which that's all I was asking for) but that's when he started screaming at me. He said where can he fax them? I told him he has to mail it to me because I can't recv faxes at my job. He went off the deep end again! I'm getting nervous now......

[rella5]

which is EXACTLY where the CA wants you. He wants you so upset you'll agree to anything. Don't do anything until you can think logically and then re-read and study the stickies, divemedics primer in particular, and get a logical and clear flow of events. Even I'm confused about your situation from reading this thread. Just FREEZE until you have solid advice and a CLEAR idea of what your next step needs to be!

[gankin247]

After reading this thread, and other similar postings, I am still unsure as to the answer to the following question:

If I have included the following in my DV, can the CA continue to contact me via telephone at home after they respond (but not properly) to my DV:

"I would also like to request that no telephone contact be made by your offices to my home or to my place of employment. If your offices attempt telephone communication with me, including but not limited to computer generated calls and calls or correspondence sent to or with any third parties, it will be considered harassment and I will have no choice but to file suit. All future communications with me MUST be done in writing and sent to the address noted in this letter by USPS."

I always understood that if you ask a CA not to contact you, they can only contact you once more to say they are going to sue you. In my case, the CA has left several messages after their improper DV response.

The CA didn't properly respond to my DV because they failed to provide a detailed accounting of the debt as I specifically requested in my DV. The original dunning letter also violated the FDCPA as it only contained an amount due, and didn't break that amount down into services, collection fees and interest charges they are attempting to collect. Fields v. Wilber Law Firm, Donald L. Wilber and Kenneth Wilber, USCA-02-C-0072, 7th Circuit Court, Sept 2004.

Any help answering my question will help tremendously, as the answer helps determine my next move, and I'm sure I'll get another call Monday morning. Thanks.

[Optimus_SubPrime]

The CA is forbidden from communicating with a consumer at "a time or place known or which should be known to be inconvenient to the consumer." The problem is that forbidding telephone calls forbids a method of contact, not a time or place.

If you want the collector to cease all further communication with you, you should write, "Cease all further communication with me," (or "I refuse to pay this debt," since the FDCPA treats that notice as identical to a cease communications notice). Of course, that ceases calls AND letters, and may provoke a lawsuit.

If you just want the collector to stop calling you, the statement I prefer is, "Calls are inconvenient for me at any time other than X," where X can be as specific as you like. This may still provoke a lawsuit, since some collectors will treat any request like this as a cease comm.

The FDCPA is interpreted according to a "least sophisticated consumer" standard, so you could still possibly prevail in court on a 1692c(a)(1) violation with the warning you've given, but I wouldn't count on it.

[gankin247]

Optimus, I am going to start a new thread on this, specific to cell phones. Please read and advise. Thanks.