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Received bogus validation... now what?


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Ok, I sent my request for DV by email and also CMRRR to NCO after they reached my by phone. I received a snail mail response today from Lisa Signore and it simply includes three electronic copies of statements from this account. They did not do anything to respond to the DV requests of proof that they can collect, proof that the account belongs to me, proof of the amounts, original agreement and sig, etc.

So far NCO is NOT reporting to my CR but Cap One is for the alleged account, so what do I do now? Her letter says "send payment" like it's matter of fact.

They did not validate, so do I just ignore them, and if they do report to my CR then sue?

What can I do with OC Cap One since I know they can't prove this account belongs to me?

Thanks for any advice.

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I am not naive enough to expect "magic letters". Where in my question do I give that impression? I have read countless amounts of material that references how they often can't validate and don't, and I believe this is one of those cases. I believe they are trying to pull one over on me assuming that I'm naive about the FDCPA and their burden of proof.

They are just photocopies of the last 3 statements from Cap One before it was charged off. That does not prove anything—they did not include original documentation that the debt belongs to me, original signed agreement, that I am the person that is on the statement, or that they are authorized in any way by Cap One to collect on their behalf or that they now own the debt if they do. They do not show my social (and I did not provide it in my DV letter), nor any proof that this debt belongs to me—it's simply photocopies of a few statements showing late fees/past due balances—no transactions, nothing.

This is the part from my letter of what I requested and the only thing they did was identify the OC and the amount, but not how it was calculated.

To refresh your memory on what constitutes legal validation, I am giving a list of the required documentation for each account in question:

Identify the original creditor.

The amount of the alleged debt and how it was calculated.

Agreement that bears the signature of the alleged debtor wherein the party agreed to pay the original creditor.

Letter of sale or assignment from the original creditor to your company. (Agreement with your client that grants you the authority to collect on this alleged debt.) Coppola v. Arrow Financial Services, 302CV577, 2002 WL 32173704(D.Conn., Oct. 29, 2002) - Information relating to the purchase of a bad debt is not proprietary or burdensome. Debtor must phrase their request clearly to obtain: The source of a debt and the amount a bad debt buyer paid for plaintiff's debt, how amount sought was calculated, where in issue a list of reports to credit bureaus, and documents conferring authority on defendant to collect debt.

Intimate knowledge of the creation of the debt by you, the collection agency.

I'm sure you know, under FDCPA Section 809 (B), you are not allowed to pursue collection activity until the debt is validated. You should be made aware that in TWYLA BOATLEY, Plaintiff, vs. DIEM CORPORATION, No. CIV 03-0762 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA, 2004, the courts ruled that reporting a collection account indeed is considered collection activity.

Please also provide proof that you are licensed to conduct business for collection activity in the State of Hawaii where I have resided since 2003.

What I am wanting to understand is how I can make sure they stop trying to collect, and even better, what I can do to go to Cap One now and get them off my CR because obviously they don't have the valid info. Do I dispute with the CRAs again and then sue if nothing changes?

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I believe they are trying to pull one over on me assuming that I'm naive about the FDCPA and their burden of proof.

I think you might be naive about the FDCPA burden of proof for verification. Moving on...

They are just photocopies of the last 3 statements from Cap One before it was charged off.

Okay. This is important. At least I think it is, maybe you'll disagree. For one, it satisfied the obtain and forward part of the FDCPA. They obtained verification and forwarded a copy to you. Let's examine it a bit more.

You claim you want NCO to prove they are authorized by CapOne to collect on this debt, yes? Okay, let's play a game. You are Capital One and I am NCO. You have some debtors that owe money. I come to you out of the blue with no collection agreement between us and say "hey we decide to dun some people at random for Capital One debts for ****s and giggles to see what happened. A couple of guys actually did owe you money! They want proof now though. Turn over your records to us."

So... what are you going to say? Sounds ridiculous right? a) No CA is going to just dun you for a debt on a whim to see what happens. They found out you owed CapOne somehow. Barring the unlikely, how do you think that happened? Perhaps, I dunno, CAPITAL ONE TOLD THEM? B) even if that DID happen, no bank is gonna turn over customer records to some company they have no dealings with.

Hmm, I wonder if NCO is authorized to collect on this debt? I mean, why else would CapOne agree to turn over financial documents to an outside company if they didn't?

So... NCO getting copies of your statements from Capital One makes it a very reasonable assumption that NCO is authorized to collect on this debt.

Moving on to your next point of contention.

"The statements don't prove it's me".

Very simple. Are you claiming identity theft? No? Well then, let's see what our options are. The statements have your name on them. Your address. They might even show how much you paid last time they sent you one of those statement thingies.

Hmmm... Well what's a reasonable person to assume here?

a) Those statements were sent to your name and address mistakenly and you decided to pay them even though you had no clue why you were being billed (over a period of several months, perhaps YEARS no less).

B) That you are the person on the statement and the debt belongs to you.

This is the part from my letter of what I requested and the only thing they did was identify the OC and the amount, but not how it was calculated.

I'll address this in summary. You don't understand what you were requesting. That's why you don't look on the internet and send a 3 page form letter. If you want to dispute something, dispute it. In your own words. Validation is not discovery. The Coppola v Arrow decision quoted has ZILCH to do with debt validation. It's about discovery during a trial. Don't go sending things without understanding what you are sending.

Not only that, they did fulfill quite a bit of your request. They identified the original creditor (actually in the FDCPA. You have legs to stand on with that request!) They stated the amount of the debt.

They did not:

State how the debt was calculated (important I think, supported by courts and you have a valid gripe).

Show an agreement with your signature which would be important if you were claiming identity theft (it doesn't appear that you are, so you don't need it in this case).

Letter of sale or assignment... I'll just be brief and say you aren't getting that and they are under no obligation whatsoever to provide that. Period.

Your social security number. Not sure why that's relevant really.

Intimate knowledge of the creation of the debt... well they can't have that knowledge because they didn't create it. Courts even say so. Barking up the wrong tree here.

What I am wanting to understand is how I can make sure they stop trying to collect

You have the option of sending NCO a cease and desist letter. I don't really recommend it, but that actually has legs to stand on and they must comply.

and even better, what I can do to go to Cap One now and get them off my CR because obviously they don't have the valid info. Do I dispute with the CRAs again and then sue if nothing changes?

Don't even know where to start here... Cap One has the valid info. Get that notion out of your head now. They are in the business of creating debts and keeping records of them. Sure, dispute again. I give you a 1% chance of success going that route. You have absolutely no cause to sue CapOne. I give you 0% chance of success there.

As a slightly related aside, you appear to have taken my signature as an actual response to you (magic letter quote from divemedic). Seems it actually applies in this thread.

I apologize to everyone reading this for not being my usual brief self. Had to lot to clear up here.

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I never quite understand people like you who seem to want to help but then you go and be an ******* about it. If you don't want to help, don't help, if you do, you don't need to speak to people in a crass, condescending, antagonistic manner.

Thanks for you help! NOT.

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For crying out loud, you started down IHateCAs' throat because of the signature and have been refusing to listen to logic from the get go.

The statements they sent you are EXACTLY what is considered legal validation.

1) They prove you made payments on the account - by law, this is all that is needed to establish your contract with the OC for credit.

2) They prove you were delinquent on the account.

3) They prove that the CA has a valid relationship with the OC to collect - else HOW could they possibly obtain private statements from your account???

Please don't get the idea that they have to provide your original signature, etc - they don't - especially in this day and age when people get credit over the phone or by internet and a signed contract is never established.

You can continue to insist that they have to provide all the info you request, but there is no law stating such a list, and it will not hold in court. Sorry to disappoint...

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That does not prove anything—they did not include original documentation that the debt belongs to me, original signed agreement, that I am the person that is on the statement, or that they are authorized in any way by Cap One to collect on their behalf or that they now own the debt if they do. They do not show my social (and I did not provide it in my DV letter), nor any proof that this debt belongs to me—it's simply photocopies of a few statements showing late fees/past due balances—no transactions, nothing.

Youre perception of what constitutes proper DV is obviously derived from the bogus DV letters that float around on the internet; this site included.

Validation does not require any of the laundry list of items you have described. It simply requires the debt collector to contact the creditor, and verify in writing that the amount they are demanding is in fact what the creditor is claiming is owed. All that mess about licenses and proof and such mean nothing until you are in court.

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I never quite understand people like you who seem to want to help but then you go and be an ******* about it. If you don't want to help, don't help, if you do, you don't need to speak to people in a crass, condescending, antagonistic manner.

Thanks for you help! NOT.

Better I do it now, than a judge do it to you when you go blazing into court with some frivolous lawsuit.

I liken credit knowledge on the internet to the Matrix. There's a whole world of misinformation out there. You bought into it hook line and sinker and even acted offended when I dared to question your 30 minutes of google knowledge about the FDCPA.

Now you've been given the straight talk. Do you want the blue or the red pill?

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Now you've been given the straight talk. Do you want the blue or the red pill?

To me that pretty well sums up credit repair. Do you want to look at it realistically or do you want to believe the bs that floats around as "truth?" Most people (not all) know whether a debt is really theirs or not. Of course you should DV and make them prove that they have the right to collect and the amount they can collect, but if the CA provides proof that is legally acceptable, it is up to you how you handle it from there. Saying that the response isn't enough because they didn't send your signed account agreement won't work in court and that, IMHO, is what ultimately counts.

I am so appreciative of the advice - good advice - that has been freely given by the "old-timers" on this board. Sometimes it's not what we want to hear, but it's what we NEED to hear because it's the truth.

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To me that pretty well sums up credit repair. Do you want to look at it realistically or do you want to believe the bs that floats around as "truth?" Most people (not all) know whether a debt is really theirs or not. Of course you should DV and make them prove that they have the right to collect and the amount they can collect, but if the CA provides proof that is legally acceptable, it is up to you how you handle it from there. Saying that the response isn't enough because they didn't send your signed account agreement won't work in court and that, IMHO, is what ultimately counts.

I am so appreciative of the advice - good advice - that has been freely given by the "old-timers" on this board. Sometimes it's not what we want to hear, but it's what we NEED to hear because it's the truth.

True. That is the same thing I'm thinking as I try and find dirt on Arrow to pre-empt the possibility of them suing me. I got so busy researching RCWs and what not that I forgot to take a deep breath, organize my thoughts, and ask for help the right way.

I could go on and make a fool of myself in court or in DV and C&D letters that would be counterproductive...but my goal (and I assume everyone else's here) is to have a clean credit report. Plain and simple. IF i get proper validation of a debt that is still in SOL, well then I'm SOL.

I've personally learned to swallow my pride in matters that I am not yet as knowledgeable in such as this, and learn from those who are. The BEST thing I can do is put myself in a position to help others newer than I. Fixing my report is actually the 2nd best thing I can do.

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