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A DV Request = A 'Please Sue Me!' Request


Lionsheart
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Hello All

:)++

I have to admit that I personally feel that sending a DV letter to a Junk Debt Buyer is one of the worst things someone can do.

Most of the members of this forum agree that by the time an alleged debt gets in the hands of a company like Unifund or Asset Acceptance, most, if not all, documentation was lost somewhere along the way. Once you DV a JDB asking them for paperwork that doesn't even exist, the disputed debt becomes worth even less in their portfolio, and you basically force them into filing a civil suit against you as a way of trying to solidify the debt. In other words, if a JDB has no supporting documentation to verify an alleged debt and ends up getting called out on it, they then need to seek a judgment against you, as that will give the alleged debt all the verification that it will ever need.

Now I fully understand that many of you have done a great job in researching your rights under the FDCPA, but in most civil cases (especially in terms of small claims court) your success on beating a lawsuit is based primarily on the whim of the judge, who in most cases is totally ignorant of FDCPA law and really doesn't have much interest in you educating him/her on the matter. Also, most of you need to remember that JDB's file THOUSANDS of law suits all across this country every day and they basically have an assembly line-style process of dealing with non-complacent defendants. The average consumer, on the other hand, is terrified of the prospect of being sued and will crack under pressure more times than not.

Don't get me wrong here, I fully believe that every single person who has a civil suit filed against them by a JDB should fight the suit every step of the way, from the original underlying debt, to the amount owed, to the assignment of the alleged debt. JDB's more often than not lie and/or violate federal law somewhere along the line BUT to provoke a JDB into suing you because of an ill-conceived DV request is simply too risky a venture.

And yes, I'll be the first to admit that JDB's sue people all of the time with no provocation required but when old debts are left alone, a lot of the time the SoL will run out, giving a debtor much more of an iron-clad defense if a suit is ever eventually brought against them. SoL's are mostly cut and dry, deciphering FDCPA case law for the benefit of an unsympathetic judge is not.

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In other words, if a JDB has no supporting documentation to verify an alleged debt and ends up getting called out on it, they then need to seek a judgment against you, as that will give the alleged debt all the verification that it will ever need.

Good. If they don't have the paperwork to send in response to a DV, that's wonderful. Let them file suit, take you to court, without paperwork, piss off a judge for wasting time for lack of a case, and it's over.

Either they have the documentation or they don't. If they don't, yeah for the consumer. If they do, eventually they'll have to provide it or they won't see a penny.

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I disagree wiht the OP.

A DV (at least a well written one) request is simply a debtor putting the CA/JDB on notice that he/she is not going to be one of the lambs that will roll over and immediately send them the money they have to be legally entitled to :roll:

And filing suit against an informed consumer just simply won't be worth it to many a CA/JDB. Too much time having ot worry about petty things like chain of custody and all of that crap. Much easier to get the Default Judgements and the ones who will scare easily with a simple "you owe" letter.

I'm sorry, but that just isn't going to work against those who know their rights.

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Good. If they don't have the paperwork to send in response to a DV, that's wonderful. Let them file suit, take you to court, without paperwork, piss off a judge for wasting time for lack of a case, and it's over.

Either they have the documentation or they don't. If they don't, yeah for the consumer. If they do, eventually they'll have to provide it or they won't see a penny.

Exactly. File a lawsuit against me without papers to prove your claim, and you'll be paying ME, and I'll be laughing all the way to the bank!

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Well let me say this about that….

Not to go overboard with an analogy but this sort of argument reminds me of the advice given to women when faced with a rapist.

Most of those “in the know” about such things will say that the victim should fight with all her strength and make as much noise as possible to draw the attention of others…some will say just as vehemently that she should not struggle at all and let it happen.

The problem is – both positions can be right.

The women being attacked when she is being attacked has to decide, based on her instincts, what is the best course of action to take and no one can really know if her decision was the right one until after it’s all over.

This isn’t that much different.

Personally, although I understand that in a courtroom, anything can happen, I would never be afraid of facing a JDB in court who had nothing to substantiate his case. However, I do agree that there is no reason to try and push a JDB into filing suit if you can avoid it.

Bottom line is, however, the DV process is the ONLY process the consumer has to protect and enforce his/her rights when dealing with a third-party collector; one should not give up that protection without a lot of consideration.

A DV may not always be the best action to take, but a well crafted/well worded DV letter is probably almost always the best course.

Yes...I'm one of those who would usually recomend using the DV process...I do so because I answer questions based on what I would do in the OP's situation; it may or may not always be the right course of action but ultimately, the OP has to decide what is best for them.

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I'm sorry, but that just isn't going to work against those who know their rights.

Unfortunately, it isn't all about you being aware of your rights under the FDCPA. In a perfect world, the majority of suits filed by JDB's would never see the light of day. In the end, it's up to the local judge to determine just what your rights are.

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Unfortunately, it isn't all about you being aware of your rights under the FDCPA. In a perfect world, the majority of suits filed by JDB's would never see the light of day. In the end, it's up to the local judge to determine just what your rights are.

Which is why there are Federal courts, appeals, and the ability to bump a case from a small claims court to a generl/superior court.

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Hello All

:)++

I have to admit that I personally feel that sending a DV letter to a Junk Debt Buyer is one of the worst things someone can do.

Most of the members of this forum agree that by the time an alleged debt gets in the hands of a company like Unifund or Asset Acceptance, most, if not all, documentation was lost somewhere along the way. Once you DV a JDB asking them for paperwork that doesn't even exist, the disputed debt becomes worth even less in their portfolio, and you basically force them into filing a civil suit against you as a way of trying to solidify the debt. In other words, if a JDB has no supporting documentation to verify an alleged debt and ends up getting called out on it, they then need to seek a judgment against you, as that will give the alleged debt all the verification that it will ever need.

Now I fully understand that many of you have done a great job in researching your rights under the FDCPA, but in most civil cases (especially in terms of small claims court) your success on beating a lawsuit is based primarily on the whim of the judge, who in most cases is totally ignorant of FDCPA law and really doesn't have much interest in you educating him/her on the matter. Also, most of you need to remember that JDB's file THOUSANDS of law suits all across this country every day and they basically have an assembly line-style process of dealing with non-complacent defendants. The average consumer, on the other hand, is terrified of the prospect of being sued and will crack under pressure more times than not.

Don't get me wrong here, I fully believe that every single person who has a civil suit filed against them by a JDB should fight the suit every step of the way, from the original underlying debt, to the amount owed, to the assignment of the alleged debt. JDB's more often than not lie and/or violate federal law somewhere along the line BUT to provoke a JDB into suing you because of an ill-conceived DV request is simply too risky a venture.

And yes, I'll be the first to admit that JDB's sue people all of the time with no provocation required but when old debts are left alone, a lot of the time the SoL will run out, giving a debtor much more of an iron-clad defense if a suit is ever eventually brought against them. SoL's are mostly cut and dry, deciphering FDCPA case law for the benefit of an unsympathetic judge is not.

I don't know about that. I sent DV to three JDBs. The collection accounts all fell off my CRAs shortly thereafter. All three of them ultimately sent me letters advising me that they were no longer engaging in collection activities/had dropped the account. Did they sell them to someone else? Maybe, I'll DV them too when they show up.

Kind of stupid for a JDB to sue when they can't even provide proof of the debt or of the fact that they have the right to collect it.

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Which is why there are Federal courts, appeals, and the ability to bump a case from a small claims court to a generl/superior court.

That's an incredibly difficult road to take for the lay person no matter how much internet research they've done. You could take the whole NACA lawyer route, but a lot of people really can't afford to pay a lawyer $1000 to fight, say, a $1500 debt.

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Gotta love that 15 yr SOL.

Which, in and of itself (your being in Ohio) could be a big thing...perhaps a CA is more willing to sue on debts in that state due to the long SOL...?

No idea. I'm not even sure if most JDB's are even aware that the SoL in Ohio is 15 years and not 6 as most people might think. I just know that when a JDB has no other means of validating a debt, a lawsuit is normally their answer. And even if they can't collect now, they'll probably be able to collect later...but any old way you slice it, a judgment is worth far more in their portfolio than an undocumented debt.

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I just know that when a JDB has no other means of validating a debt, a lawsuit is normally their answer. And even if they can't collect now, they'll probably be able to collect later...but any old way you slice it, a judgment is worth far more in their portfolio than an undocumented debt.

I just don't get your logic.

If they can't validate, what good is the lawsuit? It's nothing but an expensive waste of time.

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I just don't get your logic.

If they can't validate, what good is the lawsuit? It's nothing but an expensive waste of time.

It's not my logic, it's THEIR logic. Like I said in the OP, filing frivolous lawsuits is second nature to these people. 90% of their cases end up in default judgments, and who needs validation when the defendant doesn't even show up? The other cases normally end up with the defendant giving in to a settlement offer. Even when the defendant stays the course throughout the suit, that still doesn't mean that the judge will require the JDB to present validation in the same way FDCPA case law suggests it should be supplied. So where's the great expense in that? All court costs get tacked onto the judgment and the attorney fees are nominal and just part of the risk they're taking.

Have you ever even been brought to court by a JDB? What looks good within the context of these forums doesn't always pan out.

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No idea. I'm not even sure if most JDB's are even aware that the SoL in Ohio is 15 years and not 6 as most people might think. I just know that when a JDB has no other means of validating a debt, a lawsuit is normally their answer. And even if they can't collect now, they'll probably be able to collect later...but any old way you slice it, a judgment is worth far more in their portfolio than an undocumented debt.

Sorry, in my experience of dealing with JDBs and unfortunately that's been years mostly if you stand up to them, they go away. I've not been sued (knock wood). If I am, I'm not going to waste my time sitting around, dithering and being afraid. They pretty much count on people not knowing their rights and being more afraid of court than they are of getting screwed paying some onerous debt that probably isn't theirs to begin with or if it is it's out of SOL.

On the other hand I thank God every day I'm in PA where the SOL is 4 years across the board and the only people who can garnish your wages are the government and the student loan people (who I guess are the gov't as well).

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That's an incredibly difficult road to take for the lay person no matter how much internet research they've done. You could take the whole NACA lawyer route, but a lot of people really can't afford to pay a lawyer $1000 to fight, say, a $1500 debt.

I am one who completely disagrees with this point to this whole post. I feel if it is in your right to do something , then by all means do it. I would be willing to bet, by reading these posts and doing research on this subject that 80-90 percent of the accounts that JDB's have, they have no paperwork to back up their claim. Now someone may owe the amount they claim but if the JDB cant back up their claim, even in a suit, then everyone should fight it tooth and nail. Because once you piss off the JDB and they file suit, then they will probably start reporting to the CRA's, continue their collection attempts, etc etc....which all adds up in a nice little counter suit against them for violations. This in turn gives the consumer the edge because they cant back up what they say.

I also disagree with the analogy of a woman being raped. I would put this in the class of family courts. ANyone and everyone who has gone through a divorce or custody battle knows that when it gets right down to it in family court its a "he-said, she-said" kind of battle and it all depends on who the judge believes. If one side or the other has actual, documented proof to back up what they say then the judge has no other choice then to believe that party. And if the judge doesn't go that way, well then more times than not, the appeal will show that judge is wrong and the party who lied or failed to show their case with evidence will end up paying a whole lot more in the end.

It actually kind of sounded like to me that the original poster was a JDB themself trying to get inside a few peoples heads around here. Basically pissed me off is what it did. So i vented.....................now i can breathe.........

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It's not my logic, it's THEIR logic. Like I said in the OP, filing frivolous lawsuits is second nature to these people. 90% of their cases end up in default judgments, and who needs validation when the defendant doesn't even show up? The other cases normally end up with the defendant giving in to a settlement offer. Even when the defendant stays the course throughout the suit, that still doesn't mean that the judge will require the JDB to present validation in the same way FDCPA case law suggests it should be supplied. So where's the great expense in that? All court costs get tacked onto the judgment and the attorney fees are nominal and just part of the risk they're taking.

Have you ever even been brought to court by a JDB? What looks good within the context of these forums doesn't always pan out.

It's not even logic, it's tactics. As in SCARE tactics. they are bullies trying to take your lunch money is all. You kind of answered your point in this post. YOur right 90% of them do end in defaults. But that means that the other 10% who do know whats going on will send the DV's out and i would be willing to bet that if they go through the time to do the DV then they will go through the time to go to court. If the DV letter gets the JDB to offer a settlement amount and it works for the consumer to pay them off then the consumer has won the battle right there. I actually have TWO so called law suits against me right now i am dealing with. They both filed without even sending me a dunning letter first. When i sent in the answers and DV'd the local attorney's who are handling them all of a sudden they weren't so tough. One filed last July and has yet to give me any paperwork i have asked for, yet continues to report and now sedns me letters about every other month offering a settlement. The other has filed a report with the courts that basically says they have no paperwork at all on the case. I continue to let this happen and in about 45 days if i dont receive anything to back up their claim(i sent out new letters today) then i file suit against them and then we'll see what happens. These people live and breathe off of the poor souls who are to afraid of the word "court" or "legal" and when those of us who are in the know stand up to them they suddenly look like idiots and end up paying for it. I guess i could say having dealt with family courts for the last six years has made realize how these kind of people work, cause it's EXACTLY the same thing.

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If I am [sued], I'm not going to waste my time sitting around, dithering and being afraid.

Oh trust me, I'm not the average cowardly consumer that caves in either, but seeing as I've been sued twice in the past 4 months, the JDB's are a lot less scared of fighters then you guys might think.

The first case that I was blindsided with back in December went all the way to pretrial even though the JDB had no documentation of the alleged debt and openly admitted so in their complaint. I was also sued out of my jurisdiction and made an explicit point of that fact in my answer, but neither the JDB nor the court would allow the case to drop before my pretrial hearing, and only then was the case finally dismissed by the plaintiff's attorney. So the JDB obviously assumed that I would be a no-show at the pretrial and they literally tried to get an out of jurisdiction default judgment against me! Try to dissect that logic.

I am currently in the middle of my second suit, but I'm far better prepared this time around. I've spent a good 50+ hours researching FDCPA case law, Ohio civil law and consumer debt forums like this one. Two weeks ago I submitted what I feel to be an excellent answer to the JDB's complaint but I haven't heard anything back yet. My local court's website hasn't updated my case info either, so I have no idea what is going on.

But I digress, I do suppose that Ohio's unfair consumer laws make me an easier target than a lot of you guys, but I guess I'll just take it all in stride...until I can move far, far away from this Hell Hole. :D

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Oh trust me, I'm not the average cowardly consumer that caves in either, but seeing as I've been sued twice in the past 4 months, the JDB's are a lot less scared of fighters then you guys might think.

The first case that I was blindsided with back in December went all the way to pretrial even though the JDB had no documentation of the alleged debt and openly admitted so in their complaint. I was also sued out of my jurisdiction and made an explicit point of that fact in my answer, but neither the JDB nor the court would allow the case to drop before my pretrial hearing, and only then was the case finally dismissed by the plaintiff's attorney. So the JDB obviously assumed that I would be a no-show at the pretrial and they literally tried to get an out of jurisdiction default judgment against me! Try to dissect that logic.

I am currently in the middle of my second suit, but I'm far better prepared this time around. I've spent a good 50+ hours researching FDCPA case law, Ohio civil law and consumer debt forums like this one. Two weeks ago I submitted what I feel to be an excellent answer to the JDB's complaint but I haven't heard anything back yet. My local court's website hasn't updated my case info either, so I have no idea what is going on.

But I digress, I do suppose that Ohio's unfair consumer laws make me an easier target than a lot of you guys, but I guess I'll just take it all in stride...until I can move far, far away from this Hell Hole. :D

Ok here's the logic......almost all courts are going to go to a pre-trial hearing. The JDB's really want the pre-trial hearing to see if you are actually going to show up. You dont show up, they get what they want. You show up, they lose a couple hours of attorney's fees....for them, it's a great pay off on the gamble you dont make it to court, cause for everyone of us who do show up, there is probably hundreds if not thousands of people who dont. They do these all the time so the paperwork is nothing new or big to them, and the 2-3 hours of attorney;s fees they may pay out mean nothing to them. There's your logic.

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It actually kind of sounded like to me that the original poster was a JDB themself trying to get inside a few peoples heads around here. Basically pissed me off is what it did. So i vented.....................now i can breathe.........

OK then...

*ahem*

You know, quite a few members of this forum get really touchy when you try to explain to them that a flawless victory isn't always in the cards. You'll notice that in my original post, I clearly said that EVERYONE should fight ANY CASE brought against them by a JDB.

The whole point of my original post was to let you know why JDB's sue over undocumented debts, especially after they've been disputed. I also wanted to make it clear that the outcome of your personal case will depend largely on the whim of the judge and your ability to successfully follow civil procedure...assuming that most of you handle your business Pro Se.

I'm not afraid to fight JDB's and I'm not afraid to step into the court room to do so either, I am however weary of DV requests when I know validation doesn't exist. And whether you think you can win a court case or not, they're still a whole lot of aggravation no matter how strong your stomach is.

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Ok here's the logic......almost all courts are going to go to a pre-trial hearing. The JDB's really want the pre-trial hearing to see if you are actually going to show up. You dont show up, they get what they want. You show up, they lose a couple hours of attorney's fees....for them, it's a great pay off on the gamble you dont make it to court, cause for everyone of us who do show up, there is probably hundreds if not thousands of people who dont. They do these all the time so the paperwork is nothing new or big to them, and the 2-3 hours of attorney;s fees they may pay out mean nothing to them. There's your logic.

That was someone else (the Chelsea Football guy) who didn't grasp the logic behind JDB's filing suits with no debt documentation whatsoever.

I added the info of my first case to illustrate how arrogant and greedy JDB's are. In my case, they actually went for an illegal out of jurisdiction judgment, and the court didn't do anything to stop them -- they stopped themselves after talking to me at the court house.

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