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CA sent me letter requesting payment of a debt.

I DV'd with in 30days asking for the following.

What the money you say I owe is for;

Explain and show me how you calculated what you say I owe;

Provide me with copies of any papers that show I agreed to pay what you say I owe;

Identify the original creditor;

Prove the Statute of Limitations has not expired on this account

Show me that you are licensed to collect in my state

Provide me with your license numbers and Registered Agent

They sent me a computer generated printout showing payments and balance, not an original statement from the OC.

They also state the the Original debt was 10K that I owe them now, but the print out show a balance of 7K.

Should I just DV again telling them they have noted complied with my 1st DV request.

Thanks in advance.

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The FDCPA does not define validation. The Act merely says that the CA must verify their in-file data with the OC and so report to you. So, from a minimal requirement point of view, the CA has complied.

Some CAs will respond with nothing more than the name and address of the original creditor and the balance owed. Other CAs will respond with copies of statements. As a practical matter, the information provided depends on the ready availability of such items and the mind-set of the particular CA. In the last 5 years or so, most OCs have begun to image all the credit apps and statements but they do charge the CAs for that information. Some CAs will only pay for it if they need it for court.

All the things you ask are probably good things to ask. Unfortunately, they are not required for validation of the debt. You can ask the CA to provide those things but they are not required to do do until and unless you are conducting discovery in litigation and then only to the extent the judge permits.

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They sent a letter to ask for payment? FDCPA

Section 809

(B) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector.

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So they can just send you something that could be created on any computer and printer and that is suffient. they have sent nothing that proves they own the debt or that i agreed to pay it. The amount from the OC and what they say i owe is quite different and they state that this is the original amount without interest. This could be fraud and I'm suppose to except it.

They also only have the banks name on the printout nothing else.

I think they owe a lot more proof, done't you..

Thanks

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What does a debt collector need to provide as debt validation?

Proof that the collection company owns the debt/or has been assigned the debt. (Bob is legally entitled to collect this particular debt from you.) This is basic contract law. It is very difficult to get a judgment without a direct contract between collection agency and the original creditor.

At a minimum, some account statements from the original creditor. If you really want to get sticky, you can pin them down on the amount of the debt by requiring complete payment history, starting with the original creditor. (How the heck did Bob calculate this debt? What fees/interest Bob has tacked on to this debt and how he determined these fees?) This requirement was established by the case Fields v. Wilber Law Firm, Donald L. Wilber and Kenneth Wilber, USCA-02-C-0072, 7th Circuit Court, Sept 2004..

Copy of the original signed loan agreement or credit card application. (Your contract with Joe establishing the debt between you.) However, account statements from the original can fulfill these requirements

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BTO is confused. What he provided you describes a situation different than yours.

So they can just send you something that could be created on any computer and printer and that is suffient. they have sent nothing that proves they own the debt or that i agreed to pay it. The amount from the OC and what they say i owe is quite different and they state that this is the original amount without interest. This could be fraud and I'm suppose to except it.

They also only have the banks name on the printout nothing else.

I think they owe a lot more proof, done't you..

Please go back and read what I posted. I don't feel like typing it again. The short answer is NO and I explained at length.

Read Section 809 of the FDCPA -- it says elements of validation are (a) the amount of the debt, (B) the name of the creditor to whom the debt is owned and then some disclosures about consumer rights.

I'm guessing you found the Wilber reference on Ed Combs website. Wilbur is basically an argument over attorney fees and how those fees are disclosed. The Combs site fails to explain the context for the case because if it did you would really wonder if it is even close to your situation. As best I recall and without going back and reading it again, Wilber was a law firm representing a veterinarian. In a fuss over $125 or so of dog care fees, Wilber filed suit and added legal fees to the claim. The entire case relates to an improper validation response where Wilbur failed/refused to properly describe the amount of the debt because Wilbur had added legal fees that were not itemized. As you can see the case applies only in a very narrow set of circumstances that relate specifically to the Section 809 requirement regarding disclosure of the amount of the debt.

Still the Seventh Circuit got a little carried away and said that Wilbur was effectively hiding the true character of the debt and that Wilbur was misleading. All this over a debt of $125 and legal fees of $250. It is truly amazing what people will fight over!

The irony of Wilbur was that no matter what the did, he was going to be in violation unless he was willing to prosecute the case for free. The issue of proper FDCPA disclosure of legal fees has been fought out a number of times -- Miller v. McCalla, Raymer; Veatch v. Sheeks; James v. Olympus Servicing; Whaley v. Shapiro & Kreisman and about a dozen more cases including Alyeska Pipeline Service Co. v. Wilderness Society (my favorite!) all confound and complicate the life of a collection lawyer.

Hmmm. Does not sound like your situation.

But, assume for a minute that I am a complete idiot and have no idea what I am talking about -- what are you going to do about it?

There are no FDCPA cops. You can write complaint letters if you want but no one is going to go after the CA for the offense you describe (which I maintain is not a violation). Your only choice is sue them or shut up. Do you think you can sell Wilbur (or Alyeska) to a judge? The judge is not going to accept a web page from Ed Combs as convincing evidence of a violation.

Now, if this is a case of identity theft, what you need to do is build a paper trail of disputes, police reports and dig in your feet. Someday either they will sue you or you will sue them and then the judge gets to sort it all out.

But, if this is a case of you stalling to avoid paying a debt that you legitimately owe (which is 95% probable to be the case) gird your loins for a protracted dispute and an end result that is difficult to forecast and depends on factors that are out of your control.

If you owe this, my advice would be to find some way to make it go away. Negotiate a settlement or something. If you fight and lose, the cost will be way more than the cost today.

Now if you think I am off base, perhaps you want to hire Ed Combs instead of asking strangers on the internet for their opinion.

There are lots for people who will tell you what you want to hear. Only the brave will tell you what you need to hear.

Good luck to you.

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So they can send you basically nothing and you should send them money. i don't believe that is correct, do you work for CA's

your saying they don;t even have to supply the correct amount owed, come on don't be ignorant here, I expect more from this site..

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Sorry to say it but according to the FDCPA all debt validation is:

(B) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector.

Now you can and should always ask for more but the CA isn't required to give anything other than what is stated above.

IMHO If the CA has the paperwork or can get it they should so they can be more percise in their validation.

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They have not even provided the original creditor address. This can be toyal fraud, since the amonts are wrong. Come on..

I encourage you to read the FDCPA for yourself and satisfy yourself what it says. It is not hard to read or understand. There are also a series of FTC staff opinions on the Act. You can see everything at www.ftc.gov.

As with most things in life, there is a big difference between the way things should be and the way things are.

Sorry you find all this explanation unsatisfactory. If you think you have been wronged, then file a lawsuit against the CA.

Tell me the name of the original creditor and I'll find the address for you.

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They have not even provided the original creditor address. This can be toyal fraud, since the amonts are wrong. Come on..

I agree with you 100%

IMHO I would send them another DV and state that what they sent you was in no way PROOF that you owe the debt in question. Ask again for them to prove the debt is yours and how they came up with the total amount due.

Make it very clear that you will not pay a penny until they supply you with this information.

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What they sent you wasn't even proper validation. The only way I could see them squeaking by a continued collection violation is if the OC confirmed that were contacted by the CA and that exact info the CA sent you was relayed to them by the OC, but it's a stretch.

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What they sent you wasn't even proper validation. The only way I could see them squeaking by a continued collection violation is if the OC confirmed that were contacted by the CA and that exact info the CA sent you was relayed to them by the OC, but it's a stretch.

so whats the bottom line here. Is it worth the effort to ask for a DV or is it better to work out a payment plan?

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What they sent you wasn't even proper validation. The only way I could see them squeaking by a continued collection violation is if the OC confirmed that were contacted by the CA and that exact info the CA sent you was relayed to them by the OC, but it's a stretch.

Thanks, that what I'm thinking..

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We usually say always send a DV even if you know you owe and the amount they are trying to collect is probably accurate. This establishes that you are no pushover and keeps them from being tempted to try and add illegal fees or interest.

In the case of JDB's who have no direct relationship with the OC, it is usually impossible for them to provide proper validation at all.

Once you exercise your rights, then you can try to negotiate if you want.

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OK. I'm going to stick my nose in one last time.

From my point of view, if you know you owe the debt then you should attempt to resolve it ethically. I'm not suggesting you pay 100% of the claim or that you put up with a bunch of abuse. Deal with it on an honest basis.

If it is not your debt, then don't pay a dime and make them sue you and go down the discovery drill and you will prevail in the end.

Just because the CA did not validate to your satisfaction does not it itself mean that they cannot or could not "prove up" the debt if they need to in court. As a practical matter, there are times when the CA can obtain the necessary documentation from the OC but it costs them money to do so. They are loathe to spend money until and when they need to. Just business.

Beginning about 1999 Citibank and Amex began to keep image copies of credit apps and statements as disk storage became cheaper and cheaper and they realized that they could command higher prices for the chargeoffs they sold if they had "media" available at a later date. Since them, every OC I know keeps this stuff. Whether your OC has it depends largely on how old the debt is and who the OC is. The smarter ones started early. I see AMEX and Citi routinely spit out media that is 5 years old. I now Cap One does the same (but then they don't sell). HSBC seems the worst at this game. Everyone else is somewhere in between. Right now, no one knows for sure how long any of the OCs keep this stuff -- with the cost of disk storage dropping by half every year they can easily afford to keep it forever. No one knows.

There is your risk. You don't know what the CA can do if they decide it is worth the effort. Maybe they give up and go away. Maybe they hammer you for the full judgment including a buttload of interest and legal fees.

Statistically, the odds are probably more leaning to the side they can't come up with the docs. No one knows for sure.

If you feel lucky or if you want to prove a point, hope that they sue you and that they will not be able to survive discovery. Just be very sure to not ignore any summons you receive. May sure they know your current address so that the have no excuse to not serve you properly.

Look, I am sure you think I am a jerk. Fine. I do understand the predicament you face and it is a common one that lots of people face. You must weight your odds and make a decision that you think works best for you. To me, a settlement strategy makes sense from the risk/reward point of view.

Regardless, I still wish you good luck.

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I appreciate your response and will consider everything you said. Just want to make sure this is not fraud, they have already have lied about the amount, which I believe is a violation per the FDCPA.

Sorry, I've forgotten. Remind me why do you think the balance is misrepresented?

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