smurfette in nyc

FICO "sucker" score vs. mortgage score?

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This forum is continually providing me an education into the many facets of credit, and I thank every forumer here for their contributions to my ever expanding knowledge!:)

Now, here is my question, based on some posts I've read: what exactly are the differences between the so-called FICO "sucker" score, and mortgage score? I would like to learn as much as possible about what contributes to a good mortgage score, as I am considering the purchase of a home within the next year or so. If anyone here can elaborate on this, I'd very much appreciate it, thanks!

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I would like to know as well.

When I had a lender pull my score I was shocked it was within 5 points of my "Sucker Score"

I was also told by the lender they like to see a score above 660 and could get a good rate around that score.

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FICO offers like 17 different scoring models to its customers. The one that you can see when you go to myfico.com is the one I call the "sucker" score. This FICO model includes "utilization" which is a weasal-word way of saying here's a sucker that uses credit. In other words, here's a sucker that CCs will be able to make money off of from charging interest AND an occasional late fee or overlimit fee. The FAKO scores that the CRAPOLA scammers offer are closest to this score.

On the other hand, there is a FICO model that mortgage UNDERWRITERS use to determine how likely you are to repay the money they lend you to buy a house. While this does take "available credit" into account, this score seems to be slanted toward 0% utilization. They want your money going to them. Note that this may not be the same score that mortgage BROKERS use...from my experience, brokers tend to use the sucker score. I'm not sure why...maybe it cost less.

Now...why would your sucker score and your mortgage score be within a couple points of each other. Lots of variables there. Was it your broker that showed you the mortgage score?...see above. Do you have few credit cards...and carry low balances? That will bump up your sucker score without affect your mortgage score. It could just be coincidence. Remember...even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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My tri-merge mortgage score was within 2 points of my card-based "sucker score". Could be just a coincidence, or maybe not.

I suppose if someone had a lifetime of making perfect mortgage payments and other installment loans but defaulted on credit cards, then there'd be major divergence.

I think as scores go up, they are closer to together. The same habits that give you a 720 card score are the same habits that give you a 720 mortgage score. I do not carry balances (EVER) and my "sucker score" is a 722 this month, even with a BK that is only 3.5 years old.

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They seem to really push on the whole 7% utilization to be a high achieving FICOer. I'm at around 14% now, and at the next reporting I might be 8%, which means my score will definitely go up, but I couldn't tell you how much.

I think the myfico score, and I will dare say FAKOs give me a pretty decent indicator and what I would need to do to get that mortgage at that sweet rate. Between cleaning up my credit and building my new one, I should definitely see a mortgage. Low util though definitely seems to help.

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What is keeping my sucker score down is two-fold....80% util and a couple of med collections. Mortgages couldn't care less about med collections.

Difference? 40PTS!!!!!:mrgreen:

Close in 2 weeks.

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I can't say for sure there's not a "sucker" scoring method out there, but I really don't think it's the Myfico FICO. Anyone with less util and no lates will have a substantially higher score than someone with higher util paying more interest and any lates at all, all things being equal. A sucker also applies a lot for cards and Fico penalizes likewise for new accounts and the inquiries that go along with them.

Believe me I would strategically try to have a high sucker score if it meant better and more approvals, and I seriously don't think it's by paying late occasionally and running my cards up.

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You're absolutely right. There are limits. Even FICO themselves imply that low utilization is better (for the score you can see) then high utilization. They just don't say NO utilization. They also talk about "available credit"...the part you have, but haven't utilized yet. They say that's a good thing, and it probably is, unless you have too much available.

There's no doubt that having a high sucker score...say over 720...is a good thing. Lots of CCs will be lining up to extend you credit. On the other hand, a sucker score in the mid 600's will also get you lots of CCs.

The point is...the sucker score IS NOT measuring your credit health. Its measuring how likely the CCs are to make money off you. The two things are not the same.

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"...Mortgages couldn't care less about med collections..."

True, but they all begin the qualification process by looking at scores, which are definitely affected by med collections. Revolving balances of between 1% - 9% are suggested for maximum points.

IMO: Consumers ultimately control the data on their CR. The largest piece of the FICO pie, any version, is History. That changes each year. The majority of consumers in deep financial Poo today can find their CR totally clean in a decade. As others have pointed out here, money management trends don't change that much in most of our lives. If someone has gotten into debt in the past due to poor financial/debt management skills they're likely to get into trouble again. So even the worst among us gets a new chance with each passing month. The next piece, Utilization is one way you can significantly increase your magic number, removal of possibly inaccurate info is another important method. And, a year gives you a good time frame for improvement. I wish you luck!

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I wish willingtocope would quit beating around the bush and just tell us how he really feels... :)

I pulled:

my FAKO (PM123)

My FICO (myfico.com)

MY WaMu CC FICO (from WaMu's web site, free w/CC)

and got my Mortgage FICO from a lender.

TU was source for all scores. All scores pulled within 1 hour of each other.

Result: they all were within 2 points of each other.

What does this mean?: I couldn't tell you.

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medical debts certainly don't give a lender an idea of how you manage planned debt, but when it comes to collateral and possible lawsuits its definitely a concern for them.

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I've found that MyFico scores have been pretty doggone close to the mortgage scores the three times I've had them pulled by mortgage brokers. Mostly within 5 points or so for each score. By the way, fairly low usage and no recent lates (within the last 5 years) and no current accounts with any lates whatsoever on them. So, I don't think it's entirely a "sucker" score. JMHO.

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medical debts certainly don't give a lender an idea of how you manage planned debt, but when it comes to collateral and possible lawsuits its definitely a concern for them.

In reading many peoples CRs for Auto Loans, I was surprised how many people have unpaid Med bills. I would say 20-30%. As far as Auto Financing goes, if the Med bills weren't so great as to signal a impending BK, the lenders seemed to not care for the most part. But this is a casual observation at best.

But CC makes a valid point, I think. It seems lenders actually CAN see the difference between "planned" and "unplanned" debt.

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From my experience it means that you have had a mortgage for several years and paid on time. Probably same thing for your auto loans. Then MyFico seems to be very close to a lenders credit report score. I don't know about the others.

Charles

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I've found that MyFico scores have been pretty doggone close to the mortgage scores the three times I've had them pulled by mortgage brokers. Mostly within 5 points or so for each score. By the way, fairly low usage and no recent lates (within the last 5 years) and no current accounts with any lates whatsoever on them. So, I don't think it's entirely a "sucker" score. JMHO.
Exactly. Your FICO sucker score and mortgage score are close...because...low usuage and no recent lates.

My point is, throw in a few lates, and your mortgage score will drop, but your sucker score won't...it might even go up. Throw in more usuage, and I'm sure your sucker score will climb (up to a point).

The whole reason that FICO has different scoring models is to predict how likely someone who lends you money is likely to MAKE money by doing so. The various kinds of lenders make their money in different ways.

CC's do it with low teaser rates, then rate jacks, then late fee and overlimt fees. That's what the sucker score predicts...how likely they are to get to charge you high fees.

Up untill the recent collaspe, mortgage companies made their money with teaser rates, and then rate jacks. They didn't want people who paid them off. They wanted people who would pay them interest for the next 10 or 15 years. Now, I expect they'll be a little more cautious about who they loend to, but, again, they don't want people who pay them off, but they do want people who pay them. So the mortgage score predicts how likely you'll be to be able to carry that debt burden for as long as it takes.

There is a magic mix of things that will make your sucker score, your mortgage score, your new car score, your insurance score, your likelyhood of paying off your medical expense, and even your FAKOs converge to the same number. Pure coincidence. Not a good indication of your financial health.

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Exactly. Your FICO sucker score and mortgage score are close...because...low usuage and no recent lates.

My point is, throw in a few lates, and your mortgage score will drop, but your sucker score won't...it might even go up. Throw in more usuage, and I'm sure your sucker score will climb (up to a point).

The whole reason that FICO has different scoring models is to predict how likely someone who lends you money is likely to MAKE money by doing so. The various kinds of lenders make their money in different ways.

CC's do it with low teaser rates, then rate jacks, then late fee and overlimt fees. That's what the sucker score predicts...how likely they are to get to charge you high fees.

Up untill the recent collaspe, mortgage companies made their money with teaser rates, and then rate jacks. They didn't want people who paid them off. They wanted people who would pay them interest for the next 10 or 15 years. Now, I expect they'll be a little more cautious about who they loend to, but, again, they don't want people who pay them off, but they do want people who pay them. So the mortgage score predicts how likely you'll be to be able to carry that debt burden for as long as it takes.

There is a magic mix of things that will make your sucker score, your mortgage score, your new car score, your insurance score, your likelyhood of paying off your medical expense, and even your FAKOs converge to the same number. Pure coincidence. Not a good indication of your financial health.

Ah. Well, I'm not gonna try the getting a few lates or going over the limit to test your theory.:)

I suspect my car score isn't so swift because I have a 4 year old repo still on my reports. But, the car guy was telling me that I was an acceptable co-signer for my DF and he could get me a single digit interest rate. Who knows though, car dealers are usually full of it.

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Ah. Well, I'm not gonna try the getting a few lates or going over the limit to test your theory.:)

Lol! Altough I've "tested" WTC's theory, I still have no conclusion as to it's accuracy.

I suspect my car score isn't so swift because I have a 4 year old repo still on my reports.

You are correct here. Repo = Crappy Auto Score

Who knows though, car dealers are usually full of it.

Well, I always say, if you don't want to negotiate with the dealer, you can always just pay the asking price and save yourself the BS.:)

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Exactly. Your FICO sucker score and mortgage score are close...because...low usuage and no recent lates.

My point is, throw in a few lates, and your mortgage score will drop, but your sucker score won't...it might even go up. Throw in more usuage, and I'm sure your sucker score will climb (up to a point).

The whole reason that FICO has different scoring models is to predict how likely someone who lends you money is likely to MAKE money by doing so. The various kinds of lenders make their money in different ways.

CC's do it with low teaser rates, then rate jacks, then late fee and overlimt fees. That's what the sucker score predicts...how likely they are to get to charge you high fees.

Up untill the recent collaspe, mortgage companies made their money with teaser rates, and then rate jacks. They didn't want people who paid them off. They wanted people who would pay them interest for the next 10 or 15 years. Now, I expect they'll be a little more cautious about who they loend to, but, again, they don't want people who pay them off, but they do want people who pay them. So the mortgage score predicts how likely you'll be to be able to carry that debt burden for as long as it takes.

There is a magic mix of things that will make your sucker score, your mortgage score, your new car score, your insurance score, your likelyhood of paying off your medical expense, and even your FAKOs converge to the same number. Pure coincidence. Not a good indication of your financial health.

Interesting theory!!!!!!

You really think that a lender wants to loan money to someone with the inherrent knowledge that they have a 500 credit score (by whatever scoring mechanism you want to use), fully knowing that they can jack an interest rate to create income (interest), and also knowing that the 500 credit score shows a good liklihood of defaulting, and the loan will never be paid off, and end up in collections and eventually sold to a JDB for pennies in the dollar.

MyFico scores almost always closely resemble what a mortgage broker will pull. If you are shopping for a mortgage, and want to know what the mortgage company will see, then MyFico will come closest to the scores a mortgage person will pull. End of Story

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Interesting theory!!!!!!MyFico scores almost always closely resemble what a mortgage broker will pull. If you are shopping for a mortgage, and want to know what the mortgage company will see, then MyFico will come closest to the scores a mortgage person will pull. End of Story

That's why I keep saying mine were very close and they were pulled at 3 different times, three different credit situations (1) pretty crappy, all scores in the high 500s, low 600s (2) about 9 months later, improved all scores in 600s with highest at around 650 and (3) about 6 months later much improved (except for fricking EX). There were really no surprises myFico was essentially the same as the mortgage tri-merge.

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What should my sucker score be to obtain a good mortgage? I understand that I should see 7s across the board, but what are we talking about here? 720, 750? What is the lowest score (that's 700 range) should I have before I walk into a bank asking for a mortgage?

BTW, Willingtocope...you definitely coined a sweet phrase..."the sucker score"..... LMAO.

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What should my sucker score be to obtain a good mortgage? I understand that I should see 7s across the board, but what are we talking about here? 720, 750? What is the lowest score (that's 700 range) should I have before I walk into a bank asking for a mortgage?

BTW, Willingtocope...you definitely coined a sweet phrase..."the sucker score"..... LMAO.

Your "sucker score" should not be used. If you want to know, before you walk in to apply for a mortgage, then you should refer to the bold print, three posts above this one.

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MyFico scores almost always closely resemble what a mortgage broker will pull. If you are shopping for a mortgage, and want to know what the mortgage company will see, then MyFico will come closest to the scores a mortgage person will pull. End of Story

My question was what should my MYFICO score be when I walk into a mortgage place. I understand that myfico scores shouldn't be used, but it's what I got.

I am comfortable with the myfico "sucker" score, as it seems to be the closest score to something a lender will see (though in my experiene...my FICO score seems to be higher than the score). If I am not getting anything, it's because a lender does not like the short history of my rebuilt credit accounts....but it would be over a year and a half before I would look for a mortgage anyway.

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You really think that a lender wants to loan money to someone with the inherrent knowledge that they have a 500 credit score (by whatever scoring mechanism you want to use), fully knowing that they can jack an interest rate to create income (interest), and also knowing that the 500 credit score shows a good liklihood of defaulting, and the loan will never be paid off, and end up in collections and eventually sold to a JDB for pennies in the dollar.
Absolutley. They're not going to give you a hugh credit line with scores in the 500's, but there are people that will give you CCs. That's what "subprime" cards like Orchard are all about. They give you a CL of $500, expect you to ues it to the limit, and then charge you 29.75% interest so that your monthly $25 payment is all interest. If you pay them for 12 months they've "earned" $150 in interest, and you still owe them $500 bucks. Its like printing money...

The thing is, there are creditors willing to take either side of the bet...either they bet you will pay them back (plus interest), or they bet you won't (plus interest and penalties). Like life insurance..."whole life" bets you'll live long enough to pay them the face value of the policy (plus the interest they can earn on your money)..."term insurance" bets you won't die before they've collect 1, 2 or 10 years worth of fees.

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My question was what should my MYFICO score be when I walk into a mortgage place. I understand that myfico scores shouldn't be used, but it's what I got.
Our mortgage broker checked our myfico "consumer" scores when we bought our house last year. Those were in the 640-680 range. The bank's underwriters reported our actual FICO tri-merge mortgage score at 690. We got a mortgage at 7.25% and of course had to pay PMI.

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Our mortgage broker checked our myfico "consumer" scores when we bought our house last year. Those were in the 640-680 range. The bank's underwriters reported our actual FICO tri-merge mortgage score at 690. We got a mortgage at 7.25% and of course had to pay PMI.

Just curious, but was it because you didn't have money for a down? I potentially might have a sizable down payment if things go as they should in the next 3-4 years where I can avoid PMI. If I can't, I will go PMI myself, but I'm trying to avoid it.

Also too....with the credit crunch going on and based on past readings, I don't think I can see an interest rate that low in the 640-680 range. Everything seems to be pointing to a higher number....

I want to send a big Thank you subprime borrowers :rolleyes: ....you ruined it for people like me that will pay a mortgage!

I found it funny too that you don't refer to the myfico scores as sucker scores when refering to yourself....real cute. :)

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