Told to NEVER pay a JDB?

[suzebqueen]

In another post I made about getting ready to settle my debts I was told to NEVER pay a JDB? Wanted to see what the concensus on this is?

I am dealing with LHR on 2 cards...one card is at 13k, through First Equity...OC is NOT appearing on my CR, but LHR is.....DV'd and they sent me ALL statements from OC...

2nd card is for like 3k, OC is listed on credit report as SOLD account...DV'd LHR but have not received anything on this one yet....

Was going to try and settle on the first card since they DV'd...in a conversation with them before I dv'd very early on they automatically came donw to like 6k....

So....now I am confused...do I settle or do I wait?!?!?! Obviosuly they have all the backup on the account...so a judgement is likely right?!?

[LUEser]

Here's a couple of possible scenarios.

You pay the JDB 6000 dollars, they sell the rest of the debt to another JDB.

Or You fight it in court and work the Achilles' Hill, Chain of Custody of the records. After all, the statements only show a debt exists, not that they're accurate or that they're your liability.

And then they have legal bills to worry about. Think about it this way: 150/hr for 40 hrs. 6000 dollars. Perhaps they don't have to pay that much, but it's that much more money they're losing.

Plus, once you get to court, the settlement options may go way below the 50% you originally got from them.

Or you could fight it in court and lose and get a judgment granted against you.

The whole "never pay a JDB" thing seems to be a moralistic issue of, do they deserve to be paid so much for the tiny amount they pay?

That being said, you can see my obvious bias toward litigation. So feel free to disregard the above post if you disagree.

[suzebqueen]

I do see what you are saying...but if I settle with them I had planned getting in writing that the debt is settled in full or some stipulation that it cannot be sold...in NJ I believe it is illegal for them to do so anyway...I read that somewhere......

If I "wait and see" what happens and I do get sued...then I could wind up owing a LOT more than the 13k right? They can get 13k which is about 4500 more than the highest credit limit was....PLUS court costs and attorney fees?!?

I am really confused here.....

[nascar]

So....now I am confused...do I settle or do I wait?!?!?! Obviosuly they have all the backup on the account...so a judgement is likely right?!?

A debt collector or JDB might have backup, as you're calling it, but unless they can produce a valid assignment, all the invoice and statement copies in the world don't prove that you owe them any money. And here's the thing; the FDCPA doesn't help you in this.

In response to the statement "don't ever pay a JDB," I would add, "unless they are willing to provide a valid proof of assignment." Now, most debt buyers aren't willing to provide a proof of assignment, usually because they don't have it, sometimes because they simply don't think they need to prove anything to you. As to those folks, I would say that "don't ever pay a JDB" applies.

[Templar]

Trusting a JDB??????????

Well, I just might have heard more promises that night from the "good girl" I took to the senior prom.

[suzebqueen]

Thanks Nascar....but wouldn't a "valid assignment" as you call it be all of the statements that they sent me from the OC?

They sent me every statement from the day I opened my account....and since they PURCHASED that debt, aren't they now considered the new creditor and have a legal right to recoup the debt?

If I am taken to court on this....all they have to do is supply the court with a receipt of purchase of the debt right?

I have read so much on this and as soon as I think I have a grasp on a topic...I wind up back on square one...I just want to resolve it all as quickly and correctly as possible!

If you were me what woudl you do?!? I do not want to be sued!!!!!

[nascar]

Thanks Nascar....but wouldn't a "valid assignment" as you call it be all of the statements that they sent me from the OC?

Absolutely not. An assignment will show that actual ownership of the account or the receivable has changed hands. It will also specify the rights transferred.

A simple copy of a statement serves to show nothing more than you owed the named creditor a certain amount of money on a certain date. It does not prove that the original creditor sold the account, nor does it show that there is an amount currently due on the account.

What makes up a valid assignment is spelled out in the Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code. Nearly all states have adopted this into their statutes in one form or another and the text may vary slightly from state to state, but for reference, you can read the actual text of Article 9-406 here.

[suzebqueen]

WOW, how can you keep up with all of this?! There are so many resources and articles!

I will read that...but one more question, say I wait it out and they do sue, you are kind of saying that they will have to provide this information in court to confirm that they have a right to collect the debt.

If they do provide it, then I can be royally screwed and lose out on the settlement of about 50% that they had offered with no hesitation and wind up paying much more than the 13k owed at the moment...

....how often will a JDB not provide this information? I would think for this amount of money they would be stupid to not share that information?!?!

I have a big decision to make here.......just want to evaluate every option carefully-but THANK YOU for your help.....

[LUEser]

Shame on you Nascar.

You forgot the chain of custody of the records, they'll need to provide on top of the assignment.

This means they'll have to subpoena an officer from the OC to come down and attest to the record keeping practices of Discover. And also one of their own officers to detail how the records are upkept, how they were tranferred from the OC to the CA, and how they were put into the system, and show that they have a system in place to prevent errors in their record keeping.

Litigation costs, plane tickets, possible hotel rooms, document production costs, not to mention all the time the witnesses will have to spend in court testifying to the monotonous record keeping procedures. And the fact that you have the chance to cross examine them. And object to leading questions. And object to irrelevant questions. The list goes on.

[suzebqueen]

But LUEser..if that were the case why would any of them sue?!?!

[nascar]

You have to go with what you think is best for you, but I'll bet LHR can't come up with admissible proof of ownership - they are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to debt buyers, and IF they did have proof or thought they could get it, they wouldn't be so quick to offer you a 50% discount. In this case, I think I would force their hand.

[nascar]

But LUEser..if that were the case why would any of them sue?!?!

Because 99.9% of consumers don't know any of this information.

Sorry LUEser, I' go sit in the corner for a few.

[suzebqueen]

Because 99.9% of consumers don't know any of this information

WOW...so that many people do not do their homework before dealing the collectors huh? Amazing!

You know what really sucks..is that I WANT to repay my debt and am told by the OC I cannot...seems like the country is going to financial hell b/c of people not paying debts back...but when you can finally pay the OC back they dont want it......I have been busting my butt to save money to pay them back only to be told we dont want it.....seems crazy to me!!! Guess I will hold my money for a bit longer and try to do something smart with it for a few more months!!!

Thanks for everyones time......

[LUEser]

Right on it man, These companies live on default judgments and uninformed consumers who just open that check book up and pay.

If I were a shady bastard, I'd start making random calls and telling people generically they had a visa/mastercard/AMEX/Discover card in the past and there's a balance due of XX amount of money.

But, in order to make it all go away, they could pay me this much to make this all go away.

I'd probably have a pretty high success rate over say 1000 calls.

And could probably get a pretty good chunk of change with the whole, "I'll help you out here and reduce the amount by 50-60%"

And would I have a majority of people who would just pay up; it's this ignorance and lack of education of our rights that has poisoned our country to this extent.

So yeah, profitible scam...

Well, at least until I got caught by the FEDS for extortion.

[BMN]

But LUEser..if that were the case why would any of them sue?!?!

Because most of the JDB's hope that the consumer is ignorant of the laws of proof and representation of such, and that they can get an easy win or get a default judgement.

In my experience the more you fight them and show that you are knowledgable and won't back down, the more likely they are to go away, but not always. Like someone above mentioned, they will weigh their odds on how much it will cost them vs. how much, and if, they might be able to collect.

The only way you will ever find out how much legitimate documentation they have is by discovery, and that is obtained by filing suit against them or vice versa.

[AISLE4]

Don't forget you can always settle after a lawsuit is filed or even after the case is done. If you have protected yourself from a potential judgement even if they win they will have a tough time collecting a cent, which tends to encourage them to settle for an amount that is desirable to you.

I'd never pay a JDB before going to court, and they'd have a real burden collecting anything if they did get a judgement.

[Ahntara]

"...burden of collecting...if they did get a judgement."

The 'danger' of having a judgment doesn't lie in the ability to collect it. Rather, it's the appearance on your CR with it's resulting trouble that needs to be avoided.

[jasen]

You know what really sucks..is that I WANT to repay my debt and am told by the OC I cannot...seems like the country is going to financial hell b/c of people not paying debts back...but when you can finally pay the OC back they dont want it.

The problem is they cannot accept money on it now. If they wrote the account off and sold the bad debt to a JDB, they also sold the rights to collect the money on the account. They truly do not own it anymore. The balance has already been written off as a business loss.

[Scouse]

What makes up a valid assignment is spelled out in the Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code. Nearly all states have adopted this into their statutes in one form or another and the text may vary slightly from state to state, but for reference, you can read the actual text of Article 9-406 here.

I read....and reread this. I still don't get what exactly constitutes a valid assignment.

What I have seen sent by the JDB is a generic bill of sale which states that the JDB purchased debts from someone else. No mention of any specific accounts. They also usually send a notarized "affidavit" from JDB's "pre-legal manager" who claims that they have personal knowledge of your debt....amount owed etc.

Also what looks like an invoice from JDB listing the info they purchased...account number, amount, interest rate, purchase date etc. all info from their data bases.

I know that these are crap and have successfully had these stricken.

[smurfette in nyc]

I know that these are crap and have successfully had these stricken.

Good for you! The "crap" you refer to is considered hearsay in a court, and is thus stricken once you object to it as such.

[admin]

and is thus stricken once you object to it as such.

Don't forget, it will be admitted if you don't object.

[AboveAverage]

As someone who has recently dealt with a JDB (and from NJ), I can tell you that as per my attorney (who I got on contigency), if a JDB can't prove they own the debt or won't show they own the debt, then you have them on violations. If it comes down to them taking you to court, then go. You will already have a lot going for you.

I can have a bunch of copies of your statements and mail them to you. Does that mean I owe the debt? No, just means I have a bunch of copies of your statements and I want your money. There has been case law that's already on the books that proves that point.

I would send a copy of the letter as well as the copies of your statements back to the JDB with a letter of your stating that this is not proof of DV and to either prove that they own this debt or you'll intend to sue them on FDCPA violations. Then, actually sue them and make sure they're served.

[AboveAverage]

WOW...so that many people do not do their homework before dealing the collectors huh? Amazing!

It is very amazing, but also very true. We, and boards like this represent a tiny majority of consumers. It seems like more should know, but try talking to friends and family about this. Fellow homeowners, coworkers, etc. You'll find that they won't know 1/5th of the information that is on this board.

I myself was amazed when I was able to apply a lot of what I learned on this site. I actually thought (initially) that all of this was a bunch of ----....but I was very mistaken. I was actually very happy that I was wrong about something....lmao.

[flacorps]

If I were a shady bastard, I'd start making random calls and telling people generically they had a visa/mastercard/AMEX/Discover card in the past and there's a balance due of XX amount of money.

CAMCO already thought of that....FTC shut 'em down.

The OP should keep in mind that statements furnished by Discover are quite often reconstructions and will often have one or more anachronisms that give them away as reconstructions, but the party introducing them will claim they were the original bills (because a lot of JDBs don't even realize what they've been given).

Countrywide got caught by a bankruptcy court using reconstructions. Got spanked too. Word hit the press, and they were collapsed and sold to BofA the next week.

So if you get sued on the Discover account and the discover statements become an evidentiary issue, once the other side commits to them being contemporaneous in their testimony that they are valid ... that would be the moment to point out one or more anachronisms.

Two warnings about NJ: "Special Civil" court and Pressler & Pressler ... do some searching and hope that LHR doesn't use the latter. They probably will use the former.

[suzebqueen]

Two warnings about NJ: "Special Civil" court and Pressler & Pressler ... do some searching and hope that LHR doesn't use the latter. They probably will use the former.

Wow...seems like everyone is on the same page with these JDB...I actually just got a letter from Pressler & Pressler for a WAMU account..first collector was Integrated Portfolio...DV'd and never heard back...then it went to Professional Recovery Consultants and I DV'd them and never heard back...and I just got the one from Pressler a few days ago who is collecting for New Century Financial....guess I will need to look into them?!?!?

I am still afraid of how to proceed with this....the advice hear is awesome....just wish I knew the right road to take!!!!