bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I was looking over my paperwork and it appears the JDB is stating that this credit card was opened June 2001.However, I was In Europe doing a study abroad for a few months starting in June...Is this a good basis to bring up in court when I ask for a contract/validation/etc...I mean to say"Prove to me I owe this money to you,show me the contract with the date because I was out of the country for many months from June on...Is this good to do? I just remembered all of this when i was looking at photos from me in Europe with the dates on them..I mean I can show a basis of me not being in the country form them on on my passport etc...Then won't it force them to cough up a contract that they probably don't have....Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascar Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 It matters less when you opened the account than when you last made a payment on it. It's not unreasonable to argue that, with the availability of the internet, you could be practically anywhere in the world and apply for and receive a credit card online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Oh really.I thought I had some ammo there...I thought it would be a good sedgway to show proof of the contract..Then why would one argue for proof of signed contract when it can be done on the internet..or are you saying that even in this case you'd fax maybe your signature from Spain in to them....Seems far-fetched that someone would do that from another country....hmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascar Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 When was the last time you faxed your signature to anyone for an online credit card application? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 That's what I am saying..Don't all credit card applications have to be signed..They let you electronically do it over the internet even in 2001? I have never done anything this way. Isn't one of the arguments in court to demand proof of contract with original signature..My question would be if I was living in Spain during these months you claim I opened this card.Show me proof of contract with my signature.Wouldn't this push the judge to say,yeah you need to show proof because she has proof she wasn't even in the country..1-She is not in the country at time of opening of credit card2-JDB shows up with no signed contract agreement from me.Wouldnt't the judge want proof of that..Seems strange one would overlook this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascar Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 You're kidding, right? We're talking 2001, not 1921. You should do some research on the term, "constructive acceptance." It's the reason why they don't need your signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I would never sign anything electronically over the internet so i don't know when or what year that went into effect...So no I wasn't kidding...I was told by a lawyer that they needed a signed contract...I am getting so many mixed answers that's why I am confused.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalt Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I just finished a court pre trial hearing, the lawyer for the OC had the contract that I submitted online....no signature required. All my info..including mother's maiden name. I had no choice but to admit the debt was mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Oh i'm sorry for you:( .....The JDB I am dealing with won't be able to cough up the contract that I did online because I didn't fill out anything online for it..So the JDB (not OC) will have to come up with original contract from OC I have been told.Which I heard is a little more difficult to produce if the OC sold it over about 3 times..Like mine did. I am dealing with a 2nd maybe even 3rd JDB on this account....So I think you're situation is a little different because you are dealing with the Orignal Creditor only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Out of curiosity did it have alot of information on there that you and only you could have known and submitted? I know my JDB is trying to gather all personal information on me to put a story together....I wouldnt put it past my JDB them to try to put a fake contract forward,they are shady.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behindthe8ball Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I'm new here on the board. I know it's not what you know, but what you don't know that will get you into trouble. That's why I'm here like most other people researching and trying to find answers. I've done a lot of reading here and other places and consulted with attorneys. I also have questions about the contract too. In the past 32 years I have entered into quite a few contracts or agreements. A lot with department store cards, gas cards, and bank credit cards. Some of the bank cards I see mentioned here. I have yet to receive one without signing some form of appliction in order to get one. I even made copies of the last few applications bearing my signature. I know they exist. The last 3 being in 1988, 1999, and 2000. Not 1918, 1919, or 1920. So, in 2000 paper was still being used. Maybe, 2001 was the beginning of the computer application. I don't know, but the year before paper was still used in my case.It seems to me one would have to apply whether on paper or computer. That application would start the process of opening an account. It also seems to me that the application would have to be the "smoking gun" to prove an account in this age of Identity Theft. I have never received a card in the mail with a letter saying welcome to the club. Use this card whenever you need it. And in the fine print of the welcome letter is the statement that says, use of this card will mean that you agree to all the terms and conditions associated with this credit card account listed in the agreement. Maybe some of you got these, but I never did.I was in some cases solicited by mail with an application requiring a signature attached. What was the purpose of this? The last consultation I had with an attorney we discussed the signed application or agreement and he did not tell me it was of no significance.I've read some of the example of defenses that question the existanace of any contract or agreement bearing the signature of the Defendant.Who knows? The judge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascar Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I have yet to receive one without signing some form of appliction in order to get one.Look around online. Apply now, instant decision. 60-second approval. Your card comes in the mail in a week or so - you call the 800 number to activate it and start charging away.Some of you guys act like you just crawled out from under a rock. If you think that you can't apply for, and recieve a card in the manner I have just described, you're fooling yourself. If you think further that you can apply for, and receive a card in the manner I have just described, then not pay for it because you never signed anything, you're really fooling yourself. This isn't directed at anyone in particular; it's just a simple fact. You either have a defense to the lawsuit or you don't. Those of you who can't come up with anything - well, it's probably because there isn't anything to come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 For some reason I couldnt post a reply from my sister's computer.Hence opening the new thread..I'm sorry but you are really quite rude for a "moderator".People are new here ,this is the first time they opened threads to get the jist of things...You were rude in your response not only to me for all my posts but to Behindthe 8ball.I am glad that person also responding to you accordingly....Don't other answering my posts because i don't care for your "educated" opinion...Thanks...Everyone else is sooooo nice in this forum and has helped me tremendously. You are condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazjeepcj7 Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Manners aside, the admins advice is sound and you should pay attention to it. Don't disregard the advice because its not what you want to hear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Thanks Taz,Yes I know I listen to the underlying words.Its the tone I'm not too fond of...Thanks for the past advice you have given me.I do appreciate it Taz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denita Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Tazjeepcj7: That's true...better to be surprized here than in court. Sometimes others can post things that they see clearly because they are removed from the issue. When it directly affects us (for instance a lawsuit) the obvious course of action becomes less obvious.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltadawn Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 bella - I too am fairly new to the board and have felt that some responses have been abrupt; however, the more I read and learn, the more I appreciate diversified opinions - it will prepare you for the type of responses a JDB will use to defend their position. It's always better to be prepared, rather than be blindsided.Wishing you success in your endeavors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Yeah I appreciate the advice..But I think people have to understand is that noone know this stuff.i was talking to my family about all the ins and outs of this lawsuit process.The oppurtunity for JDB to get you on a default after and "answer",a summary judgement if one doesnt answer the 'intterogatories in time",and at court if you don't show..Not only this of course,but all the things to do and not to do when dealing with the JDB...Mine has been known to drain bank accounts without permission...Noone ones alot of this stuff unless you read up on it..I was up 4 nights in a row until 2 a.m getting these interrogatories/admissions/production of documents written up to and for the JDB...It's alot of stuff.I used to work in Corporate Law,but this is a whole different story.So technically I didnt crawl out from under a rock.One just doesn't know alot of this......I appreciate all that have helped so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montanatim Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 NASCAR is one of the few people I would trust for help, that said, they should still have to produce something. As the other poster said and you picked up on, they are picking your brain for info, mothers maiden etc. very possibly to phony up documents. It is still a worthwhile argument to say you were out of the country at the time. Even if it doesn't fly, I don't see how it could hurt. Just have backup defenses in place. Since this is the third JDB attack their standing to even sue with the chain of title to the debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behindthe8ball Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I didn’t know I was throwing fuel on the fire. Excuuuuuuse me.Nascar you managed to totally twist and distort everything. I was only relating to my last experiences that were around in the same time frame as bellasummer’s. I was not disputing the fact that credit cards could not be obtained online today. I know they can be obtained online. I get at least 5 spam emails a day telling me my card is waiting , just go to our website and apply. Paper applications were the norm in the days of my last applications, the last being the year before bellasummer’s year of 2001. I don’t recall seeing where anyone was suggesting applying online and getting a card and not paying for it because it wasn’t signed for. Where did that crap come from? I’ve been was using the internet many years before 2001 and I can’t say for sure when the online credit card business started, but I don’t recall it back then. I didn’t just crawl out from under a rock. I fell off a turnip truck probably a long time before you were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methuss Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Don't all credit card applications have to be signed..They let you electronically do it over the internet even in 2001? Well yes. Clinton signed the ELECTRONIC SIGNATURES IN GLOBAL AND NATIONAL COMMERCE ACT into law in June of 2000 which makes contracts with digital signatures legally binding. A digital signature need only be a record of acceptance of a contract with some sort of personally identifying information making up a part of it. Heck all they need to do is record your IP address on an SSL (HTTPS) conneciton and it is considered a valid signature.So that should put an end to this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 Thanks everyone...Nascar and I made nice after getting our frustrations out..Everyone is under alot of pressure if they are on this forum to begin with..so we need to stick together:)Let's all take a deep breathe......... I think i screwed up royally...I talked to them on the phone initially when I recieved the initial letter in the mail. I hope I didnt tell them too much information.. I'm sorry but this is B.S....I can't believe what they can do.I also didn't sign my name on their interrogatory responses but wrote it in a funky way so if they try to capture my signature and put it on some sort of credit application I will be able to see that they did just that.. Wow,wow,wow thats all I can say about these debt collectors,the more I think about it..How do they sleep at night?They are making my life nuts..I heard they are bad, but I never thought they were this slick. I don't mind paying it if I truly opened it.,but show me I opened the credit card,show me all my purchases,show me you have the right to collect from me..Its like we say in Italy the Cosa Nostra...Mafia of Sicily. It is..they try to shake you down,intimidate you,work the system,take you money on behalf of their friends..Well I have news for them...swim with the fishes!..hahaha....Did I lighten the mood here at least:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdebtfree Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 Just a question about this whole "signed contract" argument. Would the law passed in 2000 apply to credit cards opened before 2000? I too thought, until recently, that unless an OC, or JDB, or CA could produce an actual contract, or at least something with your signature, they had no case. I, like others have accounts that were established way before 2000. Are accts opened before 2000 treated differently in court than accts opened after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascar Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 The written contract argument might be beneficial in situations where you are attempting to establish that all the required elements are not in place to create a valid written agreement. This angle has been used to avoid the longer SOL usually associated with written contracts.As to showing that an agreement existed in some form, a signed application has little impact one way or the other. Every jurisdiction that I am aware of follows the reasoning that use of the card contstitutes acceptance of the terms and conditions of the agreement and creates a valid, binding contract in accordance with such terms.In the absence of having a signed contract, or some kind of evidence that you actually used the card, e.g. signed receipts, the creditor is left to rely on the monthly statements that were sent to you. In this case, their theory of recovery is based upon "account stated." If statements were sent to you and you didn't object, blah, blah, blah, then you accept the charges as accurate.CA's will try to use account stated to justify recovery, even when it doesn't apply to them. Account stated applies only to the original creditor and debtor. If the CA has not produced a written agreement ... let it be. Worry about showing that they aren't entitled to recover on account stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellasummer Posted October 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 Oh man, this is getting more strategic than I thought..I hate them...Who wants to open up a shop with me, hire lawyers and run people's credit reports and them tell people that they owe us that money..Then we'll conjure up information from the person who alleged has the debt and use every loophole in the book...In this economy I don't know how they live with themselves..Ok back to figuring out how to make their lives hell.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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