The LVNV Demon

[MillerFam]

These scumbags amaze me. They started their collection attempts against me around November of 2007. Using one of their many alliases. I requested Validation, heard nothing, then they farmed to another alias. I again requested validation, Again nothing. But yet they continue to verify with the CRA's. Have heard nothing until Sept.2nd 08. A letter from a collection lawyer requesting I pay etc... I again (as their letter stated) asked for validation of the debt well with-in the 30 days of the lawyers initial contact. 14 days later I was served with a summons. I thought they had to wait until they provided proof of debt before filing. The A-holes did not even give me that much. I have many viloations against LVNV and I am hoping against their lawyer too.

Today I received a letter fromt the attorney with what they call proof of debt. It looks like Frd flintstone made it. It bascically says here is the statement of account showing that LVNV aquired the account from Sears....Heck I could have printed this out on my own computer. It has LVNV on it and has a couple of dates WTF?

A little late,Like a year and three letters later, after they filed the suit. I fullyintend on filing a counter suit. Heck I may be able to get this dismissed if they filed the suit to soon. I could go on and on about what LVNV has done, but as some of you have been through this I will spare the agony.

Shold I include the lawyer in the counter suit? Do you think LVNV will show up in court? My past experience is they never show (Different CA).

What do I do with this phony BS letter from the attorney that is supposed to be a "Statement of account"? I thought it had to be something from the OC?

This is BS that these people can do this Cr@p!!

Please help. I would be happy to share more info.

[smurfette in nyc]

Quick question: are you sure you wish to proceed with this Pro Se? My gut tells me there are violations that a consumer attorney could sue for on, by taking this case on contigency. Even if you are sure about proceeding Pro Se, I advise you to call at least 2 or 3 consumer lawyers, (you can find them on the NACA site) for consultations. Whether you retain an attorney or not, I can tell you that from my own personal experience, these lawyers can give you great pointers and advice that will help you to win your case. Good luck!

[MillerFam]

Quick question: are you sure you wish to proceed with this Pro Se? My gut tells me there are violations that a consumer attorney could sue for on, by taking this case on contigency. Even if you are sure about proceeding Pro Se, I advise you to call at least 2 or 3 consumer lawyers, (you can find them on the NACA site) for consultations. Whether you retain an attorney or not, I can tell you that from my own personal experience, these lawyers can give you great pointers and advice that will help you to win your case. Good luck!

I have tried to contac several through the sites. I am in northern California most are located in So Cal. I am being told the $ amount does not interest them. I have been through this once before Pro se it seemed a lot simpler then. I am prepared to battle them, I am aware of the laws and their violations. My problem now is putting it to the courts.

Here is the thing, last time I filed my answer, showed up and court and they did not etc... they went away. this group seems a little more knowledgeable, I am not at all scared because I know I have them on violations. but how far will they go, Money tight to fight for me if you know what I mean.

I would love to get n attorney to advise me on what I have. I have documented everything. for that matter I have done all of the leg work. It just needs to be placed into writing and filed correctly...that is where I lack the experience.

[Credithis]

Is this in or outside of California's 4 year SOL?? Not that it matters, LVNV rarely has the ability to provide an unbroken chain of assignment. Your mistake in dealing with LVNV was not sending a DV to Them instead of their flunky CA's.

The only "proof" they will have at trial is an affidavit from someone in their company saying in essence "Yep, you owe it". That can be attacked as simple self serving 3rd party heresay as they do not have any personal knowledge of the original creditor accounts. You will need to provide your own affidavit as you do have personal knowledge of any such debt in your life. Look up graduated denial.

[MillerFam]

Is this in or outside of California's 4 year SOL?? Not that it matters, LVNV rarely has the ability to provide an unbroken chain of assignment. Your mistake in dealing with LVNV was not sending a DV to Them instead of their flunky CA's.

The only "proof" they will have at trial is an affidavit from someone in their company saying in essence "Yep, you owe it". That can be attacked as simple self serving 3rd party heresay as they do not have any personal knowledge of the original creditor accounts. You will need to provide your own affidavit as you do have personal knowledge of any such debt in your life. Look up graduated denial.

Funny you mention the SOL 4years here in CA if they would have waited 15 more days it would have been outside the SOL. I 100% agree with you on that DVing their minions and not them directly. I attribute that to inexperience which I have since overcome by reading here and other places. I was under the impression that since they had LVNV's name on the dunning letters that would account for something. I hope it will hold some water in court.

I guess it is what it is now so I need to move forward. I assume what I received is the type of letter they will present. I have yet to see an affidavit,

There are so many approaches to this I am just not sure where to go.

As I have read (I am sure it is hard to prove) that they volutarily bought this debt...thats their bad! Of course that not being the legal terms. But they in no way can prove that I am contractually obligated to pay them a cent.

These people must be dealt with.

Then we get into the hole listing on my CR as a "Factoring Company" Installment account, monthly terms, blah, blah, I am sorry did I miss somewhere that they (LVNV) loaned me money somehow?

[stardam]

Is this in or outside of California's 4 year SOL?? Not that it matters, LVNV rarely has the ability to provide an unbroken chain of assignment. Your mistake in dealing with LVNV was not sending a DV to Them instead of their flunky CA's.

The only "proof" they will have at trial is an affidavit from someone in their company saying in essence "Yep, you owe it". That can be attacked as simple self serving 3rd party heresay as they do not have any personal knowledge of the original creditor accounts. You will need to provide your own affidavit as you do have personal knowledge of any such debt in your life. Look up graduated denial.

I have trial tomorrow with LVNV. They only provided the affadavit from themselves. This is the first I have heard about providing my own affadavit. What else do I need to prepare for tomorrow?

[MillerFam]

Ok I have been on and off these boards for not quite a year yet, and I have yet to understand how any court of law can force you to pay a bad debt that a JDB purchased willingly.

In no way shape or form do I owe anything to these people (JDBs).I did not enter a contract with them, they did not loan me money, and foremost they are not a financial institution.

If the OC did not sue me how, can the JDB. Call me old school but I am not paying anything I do not owe you, especially when the JDB types some BS letter at home on their old 1980s PC that says "you owe us money" Yeah I will show up in court so they do not get a default judgement. But I say again how can I be responsible for a bad debt that you willingly purchased?

Volenti non fit injuria basically states that a willing participant to an act cannot recover damages for an act that they volunteered for....No friggn way am I paying you a dime, most of all not when they go about it illegally.

[admin]

Counter suits happen when someone initiates a lawsuit first. Has this happened?

[MillerFam]

Counter suits happen when someone initiates a lawsuit first. Has this happened?

Yes their lawyer filed a lawsuit even before I could send them a request for proof. they filed 14 days after I received the letter.

[Credithis]

To counter their affidavit which should be stricken by you as 3rd party self serving heresay, you need to file a sworn denial or in essence your own affidavit which say "I have personal knowledge, not the JDB"

http://www.attorney-in-alabama.com/not-pay-debt.html

The sworn denial is a simple statement filed with the court once you are sued. This needs to be a statement in WRITING that you FILE with the court where you have been sued. It can be a simple statement, but it needs to be typed, signed, notarized, filed with the clerk of the court, and a copy sent to the collection lawyer. It needs to be a graduated denial. In other words, it needs to say, "I deny that this is my debt and if it is my debt, I deny that it is still a valid debt and if it is a valid debt, I deny the amount sued for is the correct amount".

The sworn denial is a powerful tool! It eliminates the Sworn Affidavit of Account that the collection attorney has. The vast majority of collection suits proceed without a witness for the creditor. The collection attorney enters an affidavit, signed by the creditor, that the debtor owes the debt and that this is the amount. With that affidavit in hand, the court gives the creditor a judgment. When a sworn denial is filed, the debt collection attorney cannot rely upon a sworn affidavit of account, but must instead produce a live witness to testify about the debt. The requirement of a live witness changes the dynamic of the collection action considerably. The likelihood that the action will go no further now increases again.

Always provide your own affidavit and motion to strike the plaintiff's affidavit as not being an exception to the Heresay rule. No one at the JDB's Company could have had personal knowledge of the OC's accounting practices and your account activity while with them.

[MillerFam]

To counter their affidavit which should be stricken by you as 3rd party self serving heresay, you need to file a sworn denial or in essence your own affidavit which say "I have personal knowledge, not the JDB"

http://www.attorney-in-alabama.com/not-pay-debt.html

The sworn denial is a simple statement filed with the court once you are sued. This needs to be a statement in WRITING that you FILE with the court where you have been sued. It can be a simple statement, but it needs to be typed, signed, notarized, filed with the clerk of the court, and a copy sent to the collection lawyer. It needs to be a graduated denial. In other words, it needs to say, "I deny that this is my debt and if it is my debt, I deny that it is still a valid debt and if it is a valid debt, I deny the amount sued for is the correct amount".

The sworn denial is a powerful tool! It eliminates the Sworn Affidavit of Account that the collection attorney has. The vast majority of collection suits proceed without a witness for the creditor. The collection attorney enters an affidavit, signed by the creditor, that the debtor owes the debt and that this is the amount. With that affidavit in hand, the court gives the creditor a judgment. When a sworn denial is filed, the debt collection attorney cannot rely upon a sworn affidavit of account, but must instead produce a live witness to testify about the debt. The requirement of a live witness changes the dynamic of the collection action considerably. The likelihood that the action will go no further now increases again.

Always provide your own affidavit and motion to strike the plaintiff's affidavit as not being an exception to the Heresay rule. No one at the JDB's Company could have had personal knowledge of the OC's accounting practices and your account activity while with them.

Thanks I read the link you posted before. Great info. The attorney as far as I know has no affidavit. They have not produced any evidence in two years.I will look further into the sworn denial.

I am obviously missing something, Maybe I just cannot see the forest because of the trees.

I still (As I stated before) do not see how any court of law can allow a JDB to collect on a debt you absolutely do not owe them. If it was assigned to a CA that is a different story. At that point they are employed by the OC to pursue collection. That never happened. Sears (Citi) charged off the debt, SOLD it to a JDB for pennies on the dollar and now 3 years 11 months and 16 days later they are trying to sue me (SOL in calif is 4 years) for a debt I do not owe them.

I feel that if I base my case around that I will be fine. YOU (JDB) prove that I owe you money for something you willingly bought knowing it was a bad debt.

again what am I missing. Yeah I may have defaulted on the credit card, but the OC never sued me, they never collected. Please someone enlighten me.

The lawyer has a piece of paper he typed up in a word program that says "You owe us money because we bought the debt on this date. Not even an affidavit.

So should I proceed to answer the summons and then the Sworn denial?

[LUEser]

Some states, Kentucky for example, has a statue that seems to agree with you. Namely, a JDB can't sue for more than they paid in consideration for an account.

But not all the other 49 agree. That being said, selling debts happens all the time, it's no uncommon happening.

They basically sell the entire rights to the debt, including litigation rights. The OC gets paid and recovers some of it's loss, and the JDB gets to try to collect. Perfectly legal. But IMO morally reprehensible. I don't think it's fair at all that someone gets to pay pennies for the right to harass you for dollars.

and this is why JDBs are notoriously hated around here.

To get to your premise, such a thought to base your case around is sound, but you have to present it right. You can't just say prove it, you have to show how they can't and let them prove they can't.

This is done with, as credithis said, the chain of custody of the records, showing they have a lack of personal knowledge, showing or attempting to show they don't have an explicitly clear title and bill of sale, which gives them the right to collect, showing how their evidence is insufficient and hearsay.

Keep plugging away, you'll get there.

[MillerFam]

Some states, Kentucky for example, has a statue that seems to agree with you. Namely, a JDB can't sue for more than they paid in consideration for an account.

But not all the other 49 agree. That being said, selling debts happens all the time, it's no uncommon happening.

They basically sell the entire rights to the debt, including litigation rights. The OC gets paid and recovers some of it's loss, and the JDB gets to try to collect. Perfectly legal. But IMO morally reprehensible. I don't think it's fair at all that someone gets to pay pennies for the right to harass you for dollars.

and this is why JDBs are notoriously hated around here.

To get to your premise, such a thought to base your case around is sound, but you have to present it right. You can't just say prove it, you have to show how they can't and let them prove they can't.

This is done with, as credithis said, the chain of custody of the records, showing they have a lack of personal knowledge, showing or attempting to show they don't have an explicitly clear title and bill of sale, which gives them the right to collect, showing how their evidence is insufficient and hearsay.

Keep plugging away, you'll get there.

I totally agree, Unfortunately what I beleive is not always what a judge beleives. I still do not understand how they can receive the right to collect something i never contracted with them on. It is what it is, i guess.

Also I am far from a lawyer so putting all of this together is going to be fun.

The fact that they have numerous violations in their attempts to collect I hope will help. I do not beleive they have anything. I call their bluff.

I need to put this together soon. I have been searching for other answers to summons and analyzing what would pertain to my case.

I appreciate all of your help in getting this big ugly monkey off my back.

Someday they will pay.

[LUEser]

I'm in the process of suing them ATM, if I find out anything that may help you I'll let you know if I can.

Currently I'm still waiting on the state to serve them.

You can look at a rough draft of my summons along with some of the feedback I got here:

http://debt-consolidation-credit-repair-service.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289862

After talking with a lawyer friend, the advice was sound and the summons was pretty good but a tad wordy.

But that's okay, as I'm looking to make them really iffy about defending this case and wasting the manhours to do it. Note: I'd only recommend this is you know you're case is rock solid and are familiar with the FDCPA, FCRA, and any other statutes you're using inside and out. If I wasn't confident, I'd be finding a lawyer to get this done.

Again, keep plugging away, you're so close to getting it all put together. And if you're looking for some one on one help, just because it's LVNV, go ahead and PM me.