Lets play Spot The Violations game....

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

Here we go....

Can you spot the violations in this history with Verizon over a $54 debt? Have fun!

1. Feb. 4, 2008: Bankruptcy Attorney pulls client's EX CR and notices a debt from Verizon. TL report a recent balance of $54. Notations are: Account closed at credit grantor's request. Collections on 11/07 and 6/07. No Charge Off reported.
   
2. Feb 25, 2008: Debtor officially files for a CH-13. Papers are time-stamped from Prothonotary's office.
   
3. May 16/08: Debtor receives a letter from AFNI - attempting to collect on the Verizon debt. This was sent after debt was IIB.
   
4. August 11, 2008: Debtor receives a letter from Allied Interstate informing her that the debt was given to them from Verizon. They are attempting to collect the debt. This letter was also sent after debt was IIB.
   
5. Dec 3, 2008: Debtor pulls her EX CR to see what's listed. Verizon now reports the account Charged Off as of 10/08 AND 8/08. Also reports being in collections with a new date of 2/08 added to the previous dates of 11/07 and 6/07. TL is reporting a recent balance of $54. Nothing in TL showing that the debt was IIB.
   
6. Jan. 11, 2009: Debtor pulls her EX CR again. Same information as from the 12/3/08 pull and STILL no notations of debt being IIB.

So... How many violations (and what are they) can you spot based on the information above?

[legal_loansharking]

Three 2 are of the same nature.

Assigning a debt to be collected on two seperate occasions when it was included in BK is a violation. (2 instances, but be careful you need to cover yourself and send the BK information again to them CMRRR)

The other with the reporting the TL on a CR, I get the feeling they were not notified of the BK. I restate send the info again CMRRR, and no response within 30 days and no correction to the CR, sue the crap out of them.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

Assigning a debt to be collected on two seperate occasions when it was included in BK is a violation.

You are correct here. Under the Federal Bankruptcy Code, We can thank 11 U.S.C § 362(k) here. Under this code, all three companies (Verizon, AFNI and AI) have violated the Automatic Stay.

(2 instances, but be careful you need to cover yourself and send the BK information again to them CMRRR)

Ahh... I knew I'd trip someone up with this.... You are incorrect on this here. No need to cover myself. There is clear intent on Verizon's part to wilfully violate the Automatic Stay because it had knowledge of the BK after it was filed and sent the debt to AFNI after BK was filed. After AFNI was ignored, Verizon pulled the debt back and placed it with AI in August for another attempt at collection. This was blatant and wilfull. No need to warn them. Just sue the pants off of them.

Jim Pappas, a BK Judge in ID, upholds the basic tenant of law that says that a creditor is responsible for its own compliance with the automatic stay (or injunction of the court), and it is not the responsibility of the debtor to figure out how to prevent the violation. In In re Gorring, 05-42291 (Bankr. Idaho 7/7/2006). In other words, it's also NOT the debtor's responsibility to make sure that the creditor is aware of the BK. All creditors that are listed in a BK are sent documents from the court telling them of the debtor's filing.

The Court ruled:

"Creditor argues much of these damages could have been avoided had Debtor's attorney more promptly contacted Creditor about thestay violations. While Debtor is obliged to mitigate his damages,the Court will not penalize Debtor under these facts.

It is Creditor's responsibility to properly respond to its receipt of a notice about a bankruptcy filing. It can not complain the Debtor did not act more promptly in pointing out Creditor's own errors

".

The other with the reporting the TL on a CR, I get the feeling they were not notified of the BK. I restate send the info again CMRRR, and no response within 30 days and no correction to the CR, sue the crap out of them.

Again, it's not the Debtor's responsibility to inform the Creditors of the BK. Why?? Here's why:

This is soooo worth repeating:

All creditors that are listed in a BK are sent documents from the court telling them of the debtor's filing. They are sent those documents so that if they wish, they can be present during the "Meeting of the Creditors". 99% of Creditors never show up for this meeting. The Debtor, their attorney (if they have one), the creditors and the trustee all meet together. If the Creditors do not show up and raise any objections as to why they should NOT be listed on the bankruptcy, then the trustee reviews the plan that was submitted when the papers were initially filed and either agrees with it or disagrees with it. The trustee also asks the debtor many questions under oath about the debts that they have incurred and other things.

Sure, A debtor can sue. And should sue. But they should NEVER make the mistake thinking that they have to notify the Creditor that they are in violation of BK laws. That gives the Creditor too much wiggle room to try and get out of having to pay costs to the Debtor for damages, which are mandatory under 11 U.S.C § 362(k) as well as attorney's fees and other costs, should the Debtor decide to sue the creditor for the violations.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

Wow... 71 views and only ONE person wants to play the game?

That's a bit disheartening. Ya'll must be chicken.

[wahoo238]

Wow... 71 views and only ONE person wants to play the game?

That's a bit disheartening. Ya'll must be chicken.

YUP!! I look foolish enough on my own, nice research!

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

So ya think I'm right on the money with my violations?

[wahoo238]

So ya think I'm right on the money with my violations?

Personaly, yes I think you are spot on but thats just me. Your first problem is you did biz with Verizon, shows poor charicter on your part which Verizon ATT may use against you. lol!

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

Personaly, yes I think you are spot on but thats just me. Your first problem is you did biz with Verizon, shows poor charicter on your part which Verizon ATT may use against you. lol!

Well, when you live where I live and you need a landline, Verizon is the ONLY option. If you can afford broadband cable internet AND they offer phone OR you can get a VOIP, such as Vonage then sure, you can avoid Verizon all together. But when you're stuck with only one option, you do what ya gotta do.

And trust me, I'm not done with these idiots yet.

I've been up since 4am (got three hours sleep) and I have been trying to figure out exactly how I plan on filing my Motion for Sanctions against Verizon through the US Bankruptcy courts. It's either that or sue them under State Law or the FCRA. Then I have the lovely two CA's to deal with. Still haven't figured out which court they need to be sued in and what motion/pleading I need to file since they were not listed on the BK, as they had not reported on my CR's or sent me dunning letters until AFTER my bk was filed.

Serious $hit going on here and I'm wondering how much I can get out of all three jerks.

If anyone has any suggestions on where I need to file my suit and what motions I need to use, I'd be appreciative. I've searched the motions and pleadings templates but there isn't anything related to BK violations that I can use.

[calzer7]

I wish I could help you but I'm too new at this. And mine aren't as complicated. If I were to guess, I would say small claims for the 2 CA's. Maybe you should try to post under the lawyer section and see if you get some help. Good luck.

And by the way, you didn't give me a chance to play. You replied too quick. I would have won.

[legal_loansharking]

The reason I was wrong with no 2 is that any evidence obtained from an outside source could be construed as hearsay. I was responding with that mindset. Yes I agree it is a violation, but in order to hold more serious weight with the courts, I will send them the certified letter cmrrr and give them an opportunity to correct their mistake, maybe in the letter offer a settlement in a nice amount in your favor.

Since verizon had a 3rd party involved I am sure there is some way for them to sqirm out of it due to case law, but if a second opportunity is ignored, you will have the little green card in your hand and it can translate into greenbacks for sure.

In order to prove willfull noncompliance they really have to be given another opportunity to redeem themselves, the big awards in court are typically after a company is notified a few times and the plaintiff is awarded 50,000 or more.

[Amerikaner83]

talk to your BK lawyer and let him know waht's going on - he should be able to do what needs to be done

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

And by the way, you didn't give me a chance to play. You replied too quick. I would have won.

Yes, I guess I was too quick... my bad. Mine makes for an interesting situation because I "think" I have all three by the ....er um... you know. I've just got to figure out exactly how to approach the situation. My BK attorney doesn't seem to interested in pursuing this in court. I'll speak with him again and see if he might be willing to change his mind considering I can recapture any attorney fees which would result from any court battle.

I'll keep you all posted.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

talk to your BK lawyer and let him know waht's going on - he should be able to do what needs to be done

I'm going to pay him a visit tomorrow while my oldest is in school. I have to sign papers anyway. I'm going to type up a list of the issues stemming from the Verizon mess. Any particular laws that I can cite in my list would be helpful (other than the ones I've already cited from my first post). I'm thinking FCRA violations here too, but I don't want to be wrong on that.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

Since verizon had a 3rd party involved I am sure there is some way for them to sqirm out of it due to case law, but if a second opportunity is ignored, you will have the little green card in your hand and it can translate into greenbacks for sure.

In order to prove willfull noncompliance they really have to be given another opportunity to redeem themselves, the big awards in court are typically after a company is notified a few times and the plaintiff is awarded 50,000 or more.

Would if matter if I had a dated letter from Verizon's bankruptcy department? The letter was dated before the third party was given the account, which makes it a known fact that Verizon knew that the BK had been filed.

[legal_loansharking]

Yes it does matter..... Willful negligence needs to be proven by a series of events not a single event that their attorney can twist into a simple clerical error.

I have been in court enough times to know you need to hammer a point with as many angles and evidence to really prove a case especially when it comes to damages, the more evidence you have the better your chances.

The last thing you want to do is to file a frivelous suit, even though it is not really, but ANYTHING can happen in court, you really dont want to limit yourself if it comes to maximazing damages to prove your case. Otherwise a little evidence the judge can rule against you and force you to pay their atty fees.

In PA it costs at least 100.00 to file a little BS case in District Court and 250.00 plus for the county. You really have to have a mountain of proof to make it worth while, although in PA this is wrong. We should be able to go and file for all of the FDCPA violations for a reasonable fee, the courts apparently do not see it that way anymore. Most of the District Judges are not attorney's anyway, in some instances we might be better off taking the 100.00 to atlantic city and playing in the casino the chances are 50/50 either way but you will have a little fun spending the 100.00

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

I'm not looking at filing in District or County court and I hardly think that the violations are either petty or frivolous here. We're talking serious repeated misconduct by Verizon. I'm looking to have sanctions placed against Verizon due to the willful negligence of the Automatic Stay afforded to me under the Ch 13 that was filed last year. Under the BK laws, the creditor MUST pay for damages if the conduct was such that it violated 11 U.S.C § 362(k). Additionally, both AFNI and Allied could be held liable as well because of their repeated attempts to collect on a debt when they knew it was IIB. They have inquiries on my CR which clearly show other accounts as being IIB. All one has to do is read the TL's of other accounts and they can see that it shows IIB. That should have stopped them right there, but it didn't. And technically, since pulling one's CR could be construed as a continued collection effort, they had no PP to pull my CR because of the Automatic Stay under the BK laws. Hmmm.... that's another violation that I didn't think of

Between the proof of the date the BK was filed, the letters from both third party CA's, the letter from Verizon's BK dept and copies of my CR's pulled both prior to filing and after, don't you think there's enough evidence against them to show willful negligence? I do. If you disagree, please tell me why. I'm up for a good debate and maybe I'm missing an angle that you are seeing.

Can't I file a Motion for Sanctions through the US Bankruptcy courts, under my still open Ch 13? If so, then there shouldn't be any filing fees due to the fact that the Motion would be filed under the Ch 13 docket number.

I'm thinking that this wouldn't be any different than when I had my custody case and between myself and my ex's attorney, we constantly filed motions against each other, under the same docket number prior to going to the custody trial. There were no filing fees involved there. I know this because I went entirely Pro Se in that 9 month long battle.

Now, if I'm forced to file an entirely new suit and create a new docket number, that won't be a problem either. I have my tax refund money coming to me soon. There's enough there that I can pay for the filing. While I potentially "could" file a Petition to the court for relief of paying the filing fee, I don't want to take this route, as it places the cost on the county. Then again, if my case is strong enough (and I think it is) I can always pay this money back to the county once I receive my judgment. I'm still working through the particulars of this one. Maybe I should find a NACA attorney near me and give them a call tomorrow.

[lovinglife55]

http://bankruptcy.lawyers.com/consumer-bankruptcy/Contempt-and-Violations-of-the-Automatic-Stay.html

[legal_loansharking]

I didnt realize you had that much against them. Go get'em......

In PA for child support, spousal support and alimony, there is no fee throughout the entire process, that is the only place that is free.

If you BK atty is not interested in pursuing it, you may have to find an atty that is willing to pursue this. Unfortunately there are a lot of atty's out there that dont want to work real hard for their 250.+ an hour. If they have to create new motions and all that is required they tend to shy away from it. If they already have some in their file, where they can replace you name and a little text they seem to be willing.

Find a really good consumer advocate attorney. If you are in Delaware County as I am , I have not found anyone good as of yet. As a matter of fact when I went thru my divorce I had 3 attorneys, one talked a good game and was an absolute joke, the second settled a matter without my consent, the third one finally came through, but there was nothing much to do by the time the third one came around.

[Amerikaner83]

naca.net is the place to find a consumer attorney.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

In PA for child support, spousal support and alimony, there is no fee throughout the entire process, that is the only place that is free.

If you BK atty is not interested in pursuing it, you may have to find an atty that is willing to pursue this. Unfortunately there are a lot of atty's out there that dont want to work real hard for their 250.+ an hour. If they have to create new motions and all that is required they tend to shy away from it. If they already have some in their file, where they can replace you name and a little text they seem to be willing.

Bringing a suit for custody issues in the county where I reside, does cost you. A filing fee must be paid by the party bringing forth the action. Since my ex brought the suit against me, he had to pay the filing fee.

There are also additional fees that must be paid depending upon the situation. If either party wishes for the other party to undergo a psychological examination, then the party asking for that PE must undergo the same PE and pay for both. They only have ten days after the conciliation hearing to request such a thing. That ended up costing him $2400 for the PE's alone.

As far as my bk atty, I can't see why he wouldn't want to pursue this, as it relates to a direct violation of the bk laws and since he's already representing me with the bk, he should want to do this. Really, since a part of the damages to be recovered includes reimbursement for ALL attorney and court costs, he would be getting paid. I am thinking that ALL attorney costs would include the initial bk filing fees to be repaid as part of the sanctions imposed against Verizon. That's something I'm going to have to look into further. As it is, I've already repaid well over $1000 to the atty through my repayment plan. He's getting his money either way.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

Well, I just checked the naca.net site and the closest attorney(s) to me are two hours away in Philly and one in Media, PA. That's a bit disheartening. I'll see if I can contact a few of them anyways.