Very sticky - Police involved in collections?

[Asking For Advice]

I'm in a very odd situation, and I need any type of help or references or advice people can give me.

I'm in Maryland, and we own a business. Our business purchased product from a company in Louisiana. The product was shipped to us.

The terms of payment are 15 days upon receipt of product. We haven't been able to pay (basically, our customers have fallen behind on their payments, which means our cash flow is low at the moment).

We talked to the company and explained what was going on, and that we would forward payment as soon as we could. That was fine with them (at the time).

Today I was contacted by a Louisiana police officer. He wasn't nice at all. The conversation went something like this:

Him: I'm Leuitenant so-and-so with such-and-such police office, calling on behalf of XYZ company. You owe them money and need to pay your debt.

Us: We understand that we owe money, we've spoken with XYZ about this and told them we would pay when we could.

Him: They've contacted me about this debt, and I'm prepared to file a report. You realize this is a criminal charge and you can be arrested, correct?

Us: Criminal? I don't know Louisiana law, but how is this criminal?

Him: It's an amount over $500, that makes it a felony-theft.

The conversation moved forward with him telling us that he would "hold off" on filing the report, but if we hadn't paid by next week, he'd file the report and we would be arrested for felony-theft.

I've tried to talk to some lawyers, even the states attorneys office in that Louisiana county, and no one will help me. They just say the police officer isn't allowed to do that, and give me a different number to call. I call that number, and those people can't help me either, just give me another number.

I've called 10 places since I've received this call, and no one can help. Now everyone has closed for the evening and I can't get a hold of anyone.

I need to know what I'm supposed to do about this. You can't go to jail for owing a debt, and police officers can't threaten to throw you in jail for it, and they can't turn it into a theft (btw, I have the papers from the shipping company to show that they willfully sent me product).

Maybe I'm missing something, but they can't do that, can they?

Who do I need to contact? Who can I call? What do I need to do? Please help.

[wahoo238]

I know this is biz vs consumer and not all that up on biz side but smells fishy to me. I think this was an intemidation scheem. If you have caller ID start there check out the number maybe see if this LT even exists. Place to start anyway.

[swirlgirl]

I really don't believe that it was the real police calling you. Like you said, debt is not a crime. If they call back, ask for a precinct and a badge number and hang up. I think they are just trying to scare you. If you haven't paid a bill, a legitimate company will send the debt to a collection agency.

[Asking For Advice]

It absolutely was the real police. He left a message on my husbands cell phone with a contact number. My husband called it and it was the sheriffs office, and they transferred my husband directly to him.

[debtorshusband]

Swirlgirl beat me to what I was going to say, and you responded that you are sure this was a real police officer - or sheriff.

It still smells fishy to me.

Try this: call that number, and ask for the sheriff, or whoever that guy's boss is and ask "Are you aware that Officer so-and-so is calling people out of state and threatening them with police reports, criminal charges, and arrest because they are late paying for product they ordered? Do his actions comply with Louisiana state law?"

Maybe some sheriff's deputy is moonlighting as collection "muscle". Everything I've read indicates what he's doing is not legal.

Good luck.

DH

[Asking For Advice]

Thanks for responding, DH.

To tell you the truth, if his intent was to intimidate me, it did work. I'm scared to call that sheriff's office and speak to anyone about it. It's pretty hard for them to take the word of a fellow officer over mine.

That may be the only option I have though.

[brit5467]

Not trying to minimize your concern. I sympathize and understand your fear. Just smells fishy, like someone else said.

I agree. Sounds like a scheme. Even tho he left a contact number and it was answered "Sherrif's Office"...who's to say it REALLY WAS the sherrif's office? Have you gotten the specifics about what county or town his precinct is in and actually looked up the number, called IT, and asked for this 'policeman'?

Also, in my city, we have both police and sherrifs. The police don't work out of the sherrif's office. But maybe it's different there.

And actually, I experienced something similiar, not concerning debt but instead, an auto accident in another state which resulted in a criminal charge. I should have been arrested on the spot but due to life-threatening injuries, I was flown back to my neighboring state (VA) and hospitalized for several months and heard nothing more about it.

That is until, while recouperating at moms', we get a BLAM BLAM BLAM on her door at 9 PM. It's our local police, saying they'd been contacted by NC police because I had been evading the law. So NC has enlisted them to -- not arrest -- but take me into custody so I could be extradited to NC for my arrest.

(Thankfully, they didn't 'take me away' -- due to my condition and ultimately, I just went there on my own accord to be processed for arrest, retained a lawyer, then came back home.)

But my point is -- I would think the 'cop' would have used terms like "taken into custody" and "extradited." Would it be logical for an out-of-state cop to actually come to your house and arrest you? I would think he would have even used the term "warrant for your arrest" instead of "file a report."

Just something to think about.

Sorry you can't get anywhere with your calls, but maybe that's because it's bogus.

Good luck & keep us posted !!

[Asking For Advice]

Ok, I've taken your advice, and I've done a reverse phone number lookup. The number is one of the phone numbers for that parish's sheriffs office.

This is a real police officer.

[Robert Nashville/Savannah]

Do you have the money to pay for the merchandise right now?

If not, to you have the merchandise that you can return it?

If not, do you have the money to hire an attorney to represent you?

[Asking For Advice]

If we had the money at the moment, I would have already paid it.

I don't have the merchandise. We're a wholesaler, we buy product from suppliers and distribute it to restaurants and markets, so the merchandise is long gone. If my customers would pay us, we would be able to forward payment.

I have a little money that could go to an attorney, but not a huge amount.

At the moment, even though I'm worried about the debt, my biggest concern here is this officer and his behavior. Can he really do that? Can my husband end up arrested and extradited to a different state?

When does an unpaid debt become a criminal charge? How can an unpaid debt constitute theft? This is a civil matter, correct?

[brit5467]

Ok, I've taken your advice, and I've done a reverse phone number lookup. The number is one of the phone numbers for that parish's sheriffs office.

This is a real police officer.

YIKES !! I'm so very sorry. Didn't mean to spout off at the mouth.

[Robert Nashville/Savannah]

If we had the money at the moment, I would have already paid it.

I don't have the merchandise. We're a wholesaler, we buy product from suppliers and distribute it to restaurants and markets, so the merchandise is long gone. If my customers would pay us, we would be able to forward payment.

I have a little money that could go to an attorney, but not a huge amount.

At the moment, even though I'm worried about the debt, my biggest concern here is this officer and his behavior. Can he really do that? Can my husband end up arrested and extradited to a different state?

When does an unpaid debt become a criminal charge? How can an unpaid debt constitute theft? This is a civil matter, correct?

I would be stunned if this officer (if he really is an officer) is acting legally...more likely he is a friend of a brother-in-law connected to the company you owe money to trying to throw his weight around.

Even if he is a real LEO and even if this could somehow be called "theft", I can't imagine Louisiana extraditing you over a matter of $500.

"Debts" don't EVER become criminal...the only way this could be criminal is if they can prove that you took the merchandise with the INTENT of not paying for it.

I don't mean to make light of your situation here but if you don't have the money to pay for the merchandise and you don't have the merchandise then your options are pretty limited; meaning you have none.

Should this "officer" call again I'd politely tell him that you didn't steel anything; that this is simply a matter of a civil debt and then say good by.

If, and that's a BIG IF, anything "criminal" comes of this then you'll just have to deal with it when it happens.

[brit5467]

I would be stunned if this officer (if he really is an officer) is acting legally...more likely he is a friend of a brother-in-law connected to the company you owe money to trying to throw his weight around.

I was just about to say the same thing. A cop doing an illegal favor to pressure you, maybe?

Do you have any of those lawyers around there that give a free legal consultation? Maybe they'd help you could gain 'some' insight into this?

Also, there's a LAWYER forum on here. Do you guys on here think she might get more info on there? (I'm a newbie, I don't know).

Again, sorry that I wasn't more helpful before. I feel bad.

[nascar]

Don't lose any sleep over this. You don't actually think that some cop is going to drive from Louisiana to Maryland to try to arrest you, do you?

The cop is probably referring to R.S. 14.67, but it does not apply to businesses, only to persons because of the use of the word "whoever," as defined in R.S. 14.2, which limits the term only to natural persons. A business is not a natural person under Louisiana law.

Louisiana is a wacky state when it comes to the law; it's civil law structure is different from all the other 49. But not wacky enough to allow the things that you have described. The next time he calls, I would ask the cop if his job is worth a few hundred bucks because he's about to lose it if he keeps up with the Goodfellas routine. Dumbass cop.

[Asking For Advice]

Thank you all so much for your advice and words of encouragement.

And nascar, I don't think a LA officer will show up at my door, but I was worried about bench warrents and such.

I have been so worked up over this all day that it's only just now hit me -- I'm an LLC. A limited liability company. They can't hold me personally liable for this. They can sue, yes, but only get assets of the company. He couldn't arrest my husband for this in any stretch of the imagination.

The only way they can call "theft" is if they can show we had absolutely no intention of paying for the service, correct? And they can't show that, because we've been dealing with them for a couple of years, and I have numerous invoices and cancelled checks to show we had been paying our bills.

[OMGWhatHaveIdone]

I have been so worked up over this all day that it's only just now hit me -- I'm an LLC. A limited liability company. They can't hold me personally liable for this. They can sue, yes, but only get assets of the company. He couldn't arrest my husband for this in any stretch of the imagination.

The only way they can call "theft" is if they can show we had absolutely no intention of paying for the service, correct? And they can't show that, because we've been dealing with them for a couple of years, and I have numerous invoices and cancelled checks to show we had been paying our bills.

I'm glad you can breathe a sigh of relief on this one. You have a well established paper trail of your dealings with this particular company. It's not like this is the first purchase you made with them and never paid them.

Unfortunately, I personally can not cite any particular law that would help you out in case the cop decides to call back. I would venture to say that since you were able to locate the parish that the police department is in, perhaps you could google that particular police department and see who the head honcho is. Call that C.O. (Commanding Officer) and let them know what his employee has been up to.

I'm thinking there's a US Code (Chapter 18?) which says that a person in law enforcement can not abuse his authority like this. Now I'm going to have to go look.... (the researcher in me). If I find anything, I'll let you know. Perhaps that will give you some leverage the next time this idiot decides to call you.

[Flyingifr]

The cop is moonlighting and probably without the knowledge of the real police. The threat of criminal action falls apart when you examine the elements of the "crime"

1. The charge of "theft" requires some sort of taking of property without the owner's consent. I quote from the Lectric Law Library Legal Dictionary:

THEFT - This word is sometimes used as synonymous with larceny, but it is not so technical.

In the Scotch law, this is a proper and technical word, and signifies the secret and felonious abstraction of the property of another for sake of lucre, without his consent.

So, the criminal case fails on the very first element of the crime, and it devolves solely into a civil matter.

2. Now.... let me give you the legal definition of "extortion":

EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of violence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18

The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951((2).

Now... does this meet the legal definition of Extortion? If so, whose butt will be in the District Attorney's gunsights down in Louisiana? Not the debtor's.

[cap1kid]

In some jurisdictions this may well be a theft complaint, unless you had a written contract. Usually the charge is 'theft by false pretense'. Just like you can be arrested for writing bad checks. I would the attorney generals' office in the parish he works from. I don't think Louisianna has jurisdiction over this because the goods were exchanged in Maryland.

[Flyingifr]

In some jurisdictions this may well be a theft complaint, unless you had a written contract. Usually the charge is 'theft by false pretense'. Just like you can be arrested for writing bad checks. I would the attorney generals' office in the parish he works from. I don't think Louisiana has jurisdiction over this because the goods were exchanged in Maryland.

There are two kinds of contract - stated and implied.

By shipping the goods to you (across several State lines I might add) the seller entered into an implied contract that incorporated their published payment terms. The contract, in order to be enforceable, has three elements:

1. An Offer

2. An acceptance

3. passage of something of consideration.

You sent them a purchase order in some form. The seller didn't just mentally conjure up your desire to purchase a certain quantity of a certain product at a certain time. There was communication between buyer and seller and a meeting of the minds before the goods were shipped. This constitutes the Offer and the Acceptance.

The goods were shipped by the seller. You accepted the goods. That constitutes the passage of consideration.

Assuming the goods were ordered under the name of a legitimate business in the normal course of the business' operations with the knowledge and consent of the appropriate officials of that business and no misleading or false representations were made as inducement to the seller to ship (and subsequent inability to perform is not a false representation - to be a false representation it has to be deliberately false at the time the representation is made and not simply unable to be performed by subsequent events) then there can be no allegation of fraud or conversion.

Will someone please explain to me how, in any interpretation of Contract Law, the failure to pay a civil debt rises to the level of criminal act?

As far as jurisdiction is concerned, we would have to look to the sales contract. If it has a choice of law or choice of venue provision, then that would prevail. Since the amount claimed is under $50,000 no Federal Court will hear it under Diversity of Citizenship laws.

From a practical standpoint, let's assume that under Louisiana law, civil debt is a criminal act, and the cop does file a report, and the DA takes an interest in it and files charges --- do you really think the State of Louisiana will pay to have Maryland arrest you on their warrant, hold you until Louisiana State police can arrive to take custody of you, send a District Attorney to Maryland for the extradition hearing and then transport you back to Louisiana to be kept in a jail cell until trial? Over $500?

[cap1kid]

The bottom line- if he gets some goober Judge to sign a warrant- IT'S A CRIME!

[Flyingifr]

And you would need a goober cop to convince a bigger goober of a DA that a crime has been committed to convince an even bigger goober of a judge to sign the warrant.

Then you would need an even BIGGER goober of a judge in Maryland to not die laughing at the complaint and extradition request and actually sign it.

That's a LOT of goobers....

[Alpha314]

If we had the money at the moment, I would have already paid it.

I don't have the merchandise. We're a wholesaler, we buy product from suppliers and distribute it to restaurants and markets, so the merchandise is long gone. If my customers would pay us, we would be able to forward payment.

I have a little money that could go to an attorney, but not a huge amount.

At the moment, even though I'm worried about the debt, my biggest concern here is this officer and his behavior. Can he really do that? Can my husband end up arrested and extradited to a different state?

When does an unpaid debt become a criminal charge? How can an unpaid debt constitute theft? This is a civil matter, correct?

I agree with you, this seems like a civil matter.

Have you looked at your original agreenment/contract to see if there are any 'hidden' clauses? I find it hard to be that such clauses would be wriiten into a contract.

How much money are we talking about?

[nascar]

That's a LOT of goobers....

No shortage of goobers out there

[Asking For Advice]

I want to thank everyone for their time and advice.

Thank you so much for talking this through with me. Now I have some crucial talking points when I continue to make my phone calls this morning.

For the record, I do want to say that the amount is over $500. I'm not sure why that number was being thrown around, but I wanted to put that out there, in case that changes anything.

[admin]

Let us know what happens!!