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For Christ sake Robert - can't you see when someone is screwing with you. You take yourself way too seriously. The object is to be able to carry on a discussion without the necessity of tranquilizers. :roll: It would be just as easy to argue your position ... but that would have been much less entertaining, wouldn't it ...

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For Christ sake Robert - can't you see when someone is screwing with you. You take yourself way too seriously. The object is to be able to carry on a discussion without the necessity of tranquilizers. :roll: It would be just as easy to argue your position ... but that would have been much less entertaining, wouldn't it ...

Alright...you got me. Well done.

Now I'll go out and play in the snow. :)

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PHEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! Glad that's over. Now, behave children!

Robert, it reached the 80's yesterday. We actually turned off the heater. Beginning tonight, supposedly a different story. We'll see.

I haven't seen the official tally but we got more snow overnight than I've seen here in the past five years combined...it canceled my autocross today too.

I suspect it will be back to the 70s by next weekend.:)

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For Christ sake Robert - can't you see when someone is screwing with you. You take yourself way too seriously. The object is to be able to carry on a discussion without the necessity of tranquilizers. :roll: It would be just as easy to argue your position ... but that would have been much less entertaining, wouldn't it ...

When I wasn’t worshiping the porcelain god this weekend (suffering a bout with stomach flu); I had time to think about this thread and wanted to add a thought or two.

I’m always up for a good debate but when someone takes a “side” just for the sake of taking the opposite side; I’m not sure that’s an appropriate activity on an internet forum. Here, we don’t have the advantages of knowing “you were just kidding” or just taking a position for the sake of argument as we would if this were a debate team activity nor do we have the luxury of hearing the nuisances in the tone/inflection of a voice or the tale-tale signs of body language – all we have are words…bare…cold…hard…words…it’s tough to know when someone is “just kidding”.

Then there is the subject of this series of posts itself…a very serious subject in my mind.

In my always humble opinion, there are already far too many people on boards like this and in society in general (including the poster that originally started the discussion), who seem to think that meeting financial obligations is voluntary…that consumers can choose who to pay and when to pay and how much to pay without consequences. That if the current creditor is someone they don’t like or isn’t the original creditor; they are justified it simply not paying anything regardless of their ability to pay or settle a legitimate debt…these folks seem to think everything is about “feelings” rather than about the law.

That being the case, taking up “there side” only adds fuel to an already out of control fire.

I wouldn’t care how people feel about paying their debts as much if it was only between the individual consumer and his/her creditor but every time a consumer fails to pay his/her bills for whatever reason…every time a consumer gets in “over his head” or makes poor personal financial choices it costs me and everyone who does pay their bills more money…more money in terms of higher prices and more money in terms of higher interest rates for financing.

I will never support the illegal and unethical practices of collection agencies/agents and/or junk debt buyers but I will also never support those who want to escape their obligations or those who use the laws not to protect and enforce their rights but to avoid the wholly fair and easily anticipated consequences of their poor financial choices.

So my friend nascar; while I’m really gald to hear you were just kidding; maybe we should leave the “lively discussions” between people who actually hold the positions they are arguing – I think we have enough folks who will take the opposite of my position that we don’t need anyone doing so just to fool me! :)

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Robert...Thank you for blasting me in my post.

My point was that you can be responsible with your credit and finances, but things do happen in life which are out of your control regardless of how much you have stashed in the nest egg, the nest egg can be depleted quickly. Or your spouse can take X out of your joint acct and run-off.

Illness is one major one that is out of your control, divorce is the other. In my case I shared that the judge granted spousal support taking a large chunk of my income. That was something that was out of my control also. After all it wasnt my fault she ran off with her ex-boyfriend, quit her job, pulled money out of the joint acct, and went to Italy with him for 3 months, it was her personal choice.

Prior to the support hearing, I had to fill out a complete breakdown of my finances and supply copies of all bills and extra expenses such as food, gas, all of the incidentials that do not show up on a cc statement. I dont remember now how much I had left at the end of the month, but the judge ignored my other financial obligations and awarded support based only on my income, she had no income since she quit her job and the judge didnt care about marital debt as that was a matter of another court.

There are things that happen in life no matter how responsibly you handle your finances and live within your means.

I worked in the Banking industry and saw first hand how once they got you, the banks made every attempt to gouge additional money from you in order to increase profits and bring home bigger bonuses all under the cover of "this is for the shareholders".

You need to be an attorney to read and understand the Card Holder agreements. All credit card companies shortened the monthly billing cycle early in this decade to make people slip up. They also put buckets in place for example that if your account balance was between 0-1000 a late fee is 15.00, 1001-2000 fee is 25.00, 2001-up 39.00. When in reality the fee was 29.00 normally, but they had such a large customer base that most balances were above 2000 for the people who cannot afford to pay their balance off.

The cc compaines also embraced and invented Universal default, as another measure to gouge money from card holders. Universal default definition= if you paid any bill late (not necessarilary this cc bill, but any bill that reports on your credit report) or you balance on another credit card was above a certain percentage you quialify for a higher interest rate. People went from low rates 4.9 to 29.9 in extreme cases, on average about 10 percentage points.

Remember in the beginning of this decade and up around 2005 every day you would get your mail and see offers for new cards and a low percentage or even 0% on balance transfers. What the fine print did not tell you was that this BT (balance transfer) on the your account was placed in a seperate bucket. It was the last bucket to be paid down in the event you were paying down or paying off your debt. All new purchases were the 1st bucket your payment was applied to. In the event after 6 months or 1 year whatever the agreement in you BT was the BT was not paid in full, they would retroactively add all interest from the beginning of the BT to the present. Typically these offers were no good for consumers. The banks dressed them up and presented them as if they are trying to gain your loyalty, as a customer, when in essence between the legal verbage only an ant can read there was a big pay-off for the credit card compaines.

Banks such as Citi and BOA became so big that they wanted to be financial supermarkets to consumers by having "the consumer" use them for all credit transactions and insurance so in the event you default, they always know where you are. It isnt about loyalty, it is an investment in you and they can always find you if your cars and home are insured they know about every asset you own and can go after you when you default whether its your fault or not, or your estate when you pass away.

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CONTINUED

Frankly, I am happy for the banks and their shareholders that things are not going so well. After all investors invested in the banks, as an investor responsible investor or not, these banks were really not looking after them and managing risk they way they should have. Big corporate bonuses were the priority and outsourcing jobs from American workers to save a buck in order to obtain a bigger bonus has finally come to bite them in the azz.

The bank CEO's need to be held accountable, the FED'S should go after them with the same demeanor that they are going after Major League Baseball and Barry Bonds for using steroids. After all what is really more important to the tax payers.

I feel really bad for the people who work hard and keep this country moving and the people who went out and purchased that home and didnt understand the fine print, but the (outsourced) mortgage broker ensured them all would be ok, and the person clocking 40 hours a week, contributing to a 401K which has lost half of its value due to the poor decision making skills of these CEO's.

We the taxpayer are left holding the bag while these CEO's current and EX-CEO's are counting their vacation homes as easy as we count the money we have left in our pocket.

There are many arguments that go both ways with the customers and the banks not acting responsibly. But the banks attitude and actions and the lack of regulation are the main reason the economy is where it is right now.

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Robert...Thank you for blasting me in my post.

What in god’s green earth are you talking about? What in any way makes you think my last post had the slightest to do with you or “your post”…your only contribution to this entire six page thread was back on page one and had nothing to do with anything we’ve been talking about for the last four pages. xheadscratchx

My point was that you can be responsible with your credit and finances, but things do happen in life which are out of your control regardless of how much you have stashed in the nest egg, the nest egg can be depleted quickly. Or your spouse can take X out of your joint acct and run-off….There are things that happen in life no matter how responsibly you handle your finances and live within your means.

So you can’t prepare for everything; so what? Does the fact that life throws you some bad times mean creditors are just supposed to forgive you or your obligations?

While you can't prepare for everything; you can be prepared for the overwhelming majority of what happens to us in life.

That aside, there is already a procedure in place for people who truly can’t meet their financial obligations – it’s called bankruptcy. If a debtor truly can’t pay then that’s the prosribed solution.

Lot’s of life events, including divorce and illness, can be devastating – my point, however, is that it’s not the job or obligation of a creditor to just “forgive” or even care about a debtor’s problems…we are supposed to be adults; not children…if you are going to take on debt you should be prepared for the consequences; not complain that the creditor is being unfair in expecting to actually be paid back.

I worked in the Banking industry and saw first hand how once they got you, the banks made every attempt to gouge additional money from you in order to increase profits and bring home bigger bonuses all under the cover of "this is for the shareholders"….

I’ve never paid a single late fee or overlimit fee on a credit card nor have I ever had my rates jacked up because I was late on some other unrelated obligation nor have I ever cared what “bucket” my balance was kept in or what the fine print said…that’s because I don’t use credit cards. EVER.

All that you posted above are just some of the reasons why credit cards are wonderful instruments for credit card issuers and horrible financial instruments for consumers yet we have member after member on this board doing everything they can to artificially raise their stupid FICO score so that they can get more credit cards with every increasing limits – I even recently had a lively debate with a member here extolling all the “virtues’ of credit cards.

If you want to go broke and stay broke credit cards are great tools for doing so and if consumers don’t like the destination then they shouldn’t sign up for the trip.

One closing thought; while greed and corruption and poor decision making have a lot to do with our current economic situation those are hardly the only components – quite a lot of our current economic is that far too many people in government and in business think that debt is the answer to every problem…who have bought into the lie that the only way to prosper is to use other people’s money (meaning you borrow it) while giving little to any thought with what happens when those people want their money back…thousands of businesses have and many more thousands will fail during this crisis because they ran their business on debt rather than on real money.

Consumers who depend on debt won’t fare any better.

:titanic:

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