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Validation Letter

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Hi All,

I am in collections (obviously) and when I was sent the initial notice I replied within a week requesting validation.

I asked for:

Stated amount to be validated.

Disputing stated amount.

Requesting full calculations of how the total was arrived at.

Requestion all validation and dispute communication be handled by USPS.

That this is not a request to 'verify' my address but to validate the debt and amount due.

I did this for two reasons:

1 - during the period I had the cc I had identity theft issues.

2 - To stall because I am working with another creditor paying them off and would like to pay them off and then use that payment towards this creditor.

I'm not attempting to avoid it just delay it for a period more (see above).

So they (the CA) called this evening and I spoke with him. I stated I never got the validation letter (we didn't, no games). He said they sent it and that if I wanted to they would send it again or via email. The conversation then turned to the amount due, payments, how I'm a loser, etc.

After not coming to an agreement he said he'll be closing the account in a few days and to call him if I come up with a better payment and we hung up.

I thought about this for a bit and called him back about a half later. I reminded him he stated he could email me the validation letter and asked him to do so. He refused. He stated that they would 'have to type it up' and that they're not going to be my 'pen pal'. He also told me to stop 'letter stalling'.

He then wanted to know why I wanted it and if I was disputing the debt. I stated I was doing/stating nothing more but asking for the validation letter they said they already sent. He still refused to send/resend it. He said they would send me '10 letters' after I made payment arragements or paid it off (what would be the point then???). He just flat out refused to do anything regarding the letter. I would think they would jump on that so they would really have me up against a wall.

So, my question; do I have any recourse? We honestly didn't receive it. We got the first letter but nothing since which I thought was odd. He stated if I don't call back in a few days with 'acceptable' payment arrangements he'll close the account and send it back to the holder (Razor Capitol) of the account at which point they'll sue me.

I sent the letter August 18, they received it Aug 19, I have the signed card. They've called my neighbors 'looking for me', but only once. And have called my home 3 times.

Have I verified it in the course of conversation somehow?

Thanks for any advice.

Edited by TryingtoFixIt99
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  • 2 weeks later...

You sound like you are in the same shoes as I am. Please go the forum for Collections, and scroll down a ways, look for the Heading Titled "Bronson & Migliaccio hauntings" I think you will find a lot of good useful information on my postings, mostly with the people that have responded to my postings.

In reading your post, they never sent you the validation, they are just stalling, because they cannot validate your debt, because you don't owe THEM, you owe the original creditor.

Did you send the DV letter from the samples that are on here, which also requires them to prove that they are licensed to collect in your state? Or if its an attorney's office, that they are licensed to practice law, or are admitted in your State?? Also, if they are calling you once they have received your DV letter, they are violating the rules about not contacting you, or people that know you....

Again, go check out my postings, more importantly all of the replies to my posts, it will be very helpful!

Good luck to you! Before finding this website, I felt so helpless and vulnerable, but now I am empowered by everything I have learned here.

Edited by deep-n-debt
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The conversation then turned to the amount due, payments, how I'm a loser, etc.

To me those are the magic words - I would not want to pay these jokers a dime, nor to have anything to do with them. Besides that, this is the violation of the law.

I sent the letter August 18, they received it Aug 19, I have the signed card. They've called my neighbors 'looking for me', but only once. And have called my home 3 times.

Have I verified it in the course of conversation somehow?

If these phone calls to your neighbors and yourself were after they received your DV letter, they have violated the law again (and again and again). And, No, you haven't "verified it" somehow.

So, my question; do I have any recourse? We honestly didn't receive it. We got the first letter but nothing since which I thought was odd.

Yes you have recourse - you could sue. Or, you could just keep these cards in your hand for now, to maybe play them later.

Here's what I would do: I would write them another letter, telling them that by contacting you before providing verification of the debt they have violated the law. Furthermore, in the event that you talk to them on the phone in the future, they should refrain from calling you names, as that is also a violation of the law. Finally, you urge them to comply with the law henceforth, as you are aware of your rights and will act to protect them.

If you haven't already, read up on the FDCPA. Learn your rights - you may end up suing (or countersuing) to enforce them.

Good luck.


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Thanks for the replies, it helps.

This is where I'm at:

Sent another validation letter on 10/30. They sent a letter back to me on 11/2 with account number, amount, etc. Is this considered a correct validation letter? Now this is from the CA, not the OC. I just received the letter yesterday so I haven't done anything on it yet.

Also - the CA is Frontline Asset Strategies in Roseville, MN. He states that A Razor Capital purchased/owns the debt and they (Frontline) are acting as the CA for Razor.

Am I in the correct forum?

Thanks again!

Edited by TryingtoFixIt99
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The standard for validation (to the extent there is one) is fairly low, but it is generally held (from FTC statements, etc.) that it must be information the CA has obtained from the Original Creditor and not just a repetition of information they already had. But it is obtained from the OC, and mailed to the debtor by the CA.

That having been said, don't spend time worrying about about whether this is a correct valildation letter, or if they have met some (unspecified) standard. Are you convinced that this is your responsibility? Have they proven to you that they have purchased the debt? Have they provided you with an accounting of how the amount demanded was reached, and do you agree with the amount? Only when the answers to all these questions is "yes" is it time to start negotiating a settlement. Until then it's "I'm sorry, but until you have sent me the information I require, I am unable to work toward a resolution of this matter." If they decide to sue you, they will have to provide this information then. So if they can provide this information, it is more cost effective to provide it to you now, than to a judge later. Although, if they sue, you should counterclaim for FDCPA violations, as I point out in my previous post.

This forum is perfectly correct, but the "Collections" forum covers a wider range of questions/issues and seems to have a wider readership, so you might consider trying there.



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DH - thanks for all the advice.

I looked at the validation letter again today. It states the OC, acct #, when the CC was opened, balance, etc, etc. All information appears to be accurate to the best of my knowledge. The balance is about $14K.

My thought, as I DO want to get this taken care of, is to send them a letter explaining that currently I need to make hardship payments and enclose the first payment. I then know that in about 4 or 5 months I'll be able to increase the payment amount by quite a bit.

I already have one judgement against me and am working with the CA to work down that balance, I don't want/need another judgement.

Do you think I'll be digging myself into a hole by sending them this letter with a payment? I really don't feel like calling them due to the fact that they'll just refuse the payment amount, etc.

My concern is that they'll take these payments and then still sue me; will my case look any better if I'm making payments if they were to sue me anyway?


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First of all, I wouldn't be inclined to deal with these jokers at all. They have established themselves as a company that disregards the law; why should they be rewarded? I wouldn't pay them a dime until forced to do so by the courts.

Besides, have they provided you with proof that they own the debt?

But, we must all walk the path we're comfortable with. If you pursue the course you've described, I would recommend not sending them any money until an agreement, in writing, was reached. Sending them money will not make your case look better to a judge. And I would try to settle for a lesser amount; they probably bought it for peanuts. Besides, you haven't said what the situation is with the Statute of Limitations. Is there any chance it has expired for your state?

Good luck,


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Thanks again.

I doubt the SOL will apply in this case. About a year ago we went with one of those 'debt negotiation' places, ended up getting sued by Capitol One and being an idiot in regards to this stuff didn't show up to the summons date and thus a default judgement. This account was part of that ill-advised moved, so it's only been about a year since we stopped paying.

This is how I understand where the account stands:

A firm called Razor Capital has the account and has hired the CA to get me to pay. The CA called a few times and when I finally answered them he gave me 3 days to start making a payment plan or else 'it was going back to Razor and they consider this account viable for suit'. So the CA doesn't own it and they haven't called me back since the so called drop dead date. The cc debt was charged off, saw it on my credit report, so I don't know if that changes anything.

I don't want it to go to court, I'm deeply afraid of getting a hanging judge and then garnishment. I'm not sure how garnishment would be seen by my employer and, like everyone else, I can't lose my job over this.

As far as settling goes I'd love to but until my other cc is paid off (about six months) I can't make any real significant payments or a lump sum payment.

I'm at my wits end of this, I don't want to lose my house or anything else because of this (I've heard they can take my possessions).

Thanks for listening.

Edited by TryingtoFixIt99
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I wish there was some way I could change your feeling of helplessness, and get you to find the courage to fight back.

Let me toss a bunch of thoughts at you, some of which address some of your questions.

First, even if you legitimately owe them money, you deserve to be treated with respect. They have called you names, and called your neighbors to embarrass you, just for starters. This is not just impolite, it's against the law. Frankly, if you let them know you're aware of their violations, that may be the best way to forestall a lawsuit.

Frontline Asset Strategies can't sue you. They (as I understand it) are a collection agency. They get paid only if they get you to pay. Thus they say ominous things like "it was going back to Razor and they consider this account viable for suit." I've suggested on the forum before that it would amusing to compile a list of all the ominous things CA's will say to scare and intimidate people, things which are just empty, veiled threats. (Notice how they very carefully didn't say you would be sued, but that "they consider it viable for suit.") But Frontline is not at all anxious to send this back to Razor for suit. Because if they do, it means they have failed and they won't get paid.

If Frontline does give up, Razor either hires another CA, sells the debt, or hires a lawyer. Then the lawyer will try to collect from you. They will generally send you a demand letter first. That's the point when you are justified being nervous about being sued, but not before.

"Charge off" is an accounting term that applied to the Original Creditor. They are required to show a debt in major default as a loss, so that investors and shareholders have a correct picture of their financial status. After charge off, the OC may continue to hire CA's to collect, or sell it, as they seem to have done in your case. Once they've sold it, the OC is out of the picture, and you're dealing with a third party debt buyer.

If you do end up in court and lose, I don't think garnishment is automatic. You may succeed in getting the judge to rule for a payment arrangement you can afford. Or, after judgment, you may be able to agree to a payment arrangement with Razor.

It may be illegal to fire someone just because their wages are garnished. Maybe you can find a legal forum somewhere and ask this question there. Heck, you might even try the "Is there a lawyer in the house" forum here.

Losing your house is unlikely. At worst, they will file a lien on your house, and at such time as you sell the house, their lien has to be paid in order to be able to deliver clear title to the buyer. And taking your possessions is an extremely remote possibility. It's extremely expensive and time consuming, and it's very difficult for them to get what they want selling used sofas, TV's, dining room tables, etc.

If I were in your shoes I would want them to provide a copy of the bill of sale by which they purchased the debt. Until then, how do you know it's not a scam? You had some kind of agreement with the OC, but what do you know about Razor? I'm sure you never signed a contract with them. As you will find if you read up here, many CA's will just give up and move to easier pickings, rather than work to provide documentation. If, and that's a big if, they actually do provide it, the next step is to tell them you expect to be able to make arrangements with them in six months, and you will contact them at that time. If they choose to sue anyway, it was going to happen no matter what; as I understand you, you just can't do anything until then.



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