tigger

New collection attempt low, Cap1...questions

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Today my husband rec'd. a phony statement from Capital One. We thought it was legit. We believe it was an intentional deception, used to get him to call , at which time they could transfer him to the secondary company collecting for them (who is who we usually get statements from). AND who we communicated that we do NOT want to communicate w/by telephone.

Does anyone know if this is some sort of violation?

The account was closed per his request in 2008.

He hasn't rec'd. any statements from them since then. He was shocked to get a statement today. He called worried that someone may be using the account fraudulently, given that the statement looked current (i.e. did not say,"account closed,"etc.). So he calls w/a legitatimate concern, only to be hijacked by the company we've communicated we choose not to talk with by phone.

The company immediately launches into a their collection spiel. He stopped them and asked who they were. They gave him some bs about the account being "assigned to them" and there should have been something on the statement stating their name, and that the account was assigned to them. :rolleyes: My husband told them under no uncertain terms, there was NOTHING on the statement identifying that the statement's intent was allegedly about or from a second party (and there is not). This seems a rather blatant misleading and deceptive act, imo.

Then he went on to state, he would NOT communicate with that company under any circumstances without communication from Cap1 stating the alleged account was actually assigned, and then disconnected the call.

So Cap1 is aiding in baiting attempts now? :shock:

At this point, I'm not sure now WHO sent the statement...Capital One or this collection agency...but I'm fuming. :evil:

Given some of Capital One's other deceptive practices that I've read about, I don't put such a thing past them....but need to know, is this a consumer collection violation of some sort? Misrepresenting and misleading?

Thanks.

(NOTE--original post in legal help forum, req'd. that thread be deleted)

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Cap1 has their own CA - called Capital One Services, LLC... was your correspondence from them?

Also, many OCs will automatically re-route your call to their own internal collections dept when you call in...

Lastly, OCs are exempt from the FDCPA (but could still be subject to state law). As such, they do not have to answer any validation requests.

Without info like company names, there's no telling what exactly is going on.

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Cap1 has their own CA - called Capital One Services, LLC... was your correspondence from them?

Also, many OCs will automatically re-route your call to their own internal collections dept when you call in...

Lastly, OCs are exempt from the FDCPA (but could still be subject to state law). As such, they do not have to answer any validation requests.

Without info like company names, there's no telling what exactly is going on.

Hi 1stStep,

Unfortunately, no. The correspondence is not for Cap1 Svcs, LLC. I'm familiar w/that facet of the corporation. They called ***** when the account went dq (and who went sent the c&d letter to).

There is nothing on the statement he recd. that identifies it as being a communication from their collection department (internal) or an outside collection agency. The sheet he rec'd. looks EXACTLY like a Cap1 cc statement. The only difference being the address sent from, differs.

When we called the 800 number shown on the "faux statement", we got an outgoing Capital One message saying, "thank you for calling Cap1, blah, blah."

Once ****** reached a rep, they claimed they needed to transfer the call, to verify the account. :rolleyes: Next thing *******knows, **** talking to *******(another party). They claimed that they,"work with Capital One--that the account was assigned to them for collection."

Somebody is lying--just not sure if it's one, the other or both. ;)

Right now, I believe it's both.

While Cap1 may not be bound by FDCPA, it seems that they are definitely involved in this misrepresenation, given they used the statement to get a call, and then transfered to *******.

******* confirms the account is now w/them. And my husband confirms he was speaking with Cap1 when he was transferred to the other agency.

As such, (I'm just guessing here), but Cap1 seems to be aiding the collection agent in it's efforts to mislead and misrepresent. By allowing the use of their statement and statement envelope.

Having NOT sent out any statements in two years, and out of the blue sending one to do this? They've got to know that's going to mislead someone into thinking the account is still open, was re-opened or misused in some way....and leading someone to call and say,"hey, what gives--why am I getting a statement like I did when the account was current and open?"

I'm guessing they are counting on that.

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OK so you have a third party collecting. Have you received any written documents from them?

As far as Northland goes...It's not uncommon for CAs to lie - after all, they can and will do anything to get $$$ out of you. Has Northland sent you anything in writing? Have you responded within the 30 day notice period?

****

Just another piece of advice - never get on the phone with a CA - unless you have prepared in advance and, depending on legality, record the call.

****

Generally, accounts that are majorly delinquent no longer receive bills, but the account can still be "open" in their system... especially if it's DQ.

Also, OCs have allowed CAs to "mask" as them in order to collect -AMEX/NCO relationship...if your account is DQ or C/O, and you call AMEX to resolve, you are really dealing with NCO. NCO uses AMEX letterhead and even pretends to be an AMEX call center.

Is this arrangement legal? Who knows. Is it a violation of the FDCPA? Possibly... a CA cannot use deceptive means to collect a debt - including posing as the OC. Some state laws require that CAs use their legal name, or a known, registered DBA.

This could be the case for your account...

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You have another weapon - Rosenthal Fair Debt Collection Practice Act!!

This got better for you---Rosenthal applies to both CAs and OCs!!

I think you can get Northland and Cap1 on a Rosenthal violation. You may also be able to get Northland on an FDCPA violation.

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Hi 1stStep,

Unfortunately, no. The correspondence is not for Capital One Services, LLC. I'm familiar w/that facet of the corporation, as it's who called my husband when the account went delinquent, and who went sent the c&d letter to.

There is nothing on the statement he recd. that identifies it as being a communication from their collection department (internal) or an outside collection agency. The sheet he rec'd. looks EXACTLY like a Cap1 cc statement. I know because I have an account w/them and compared the statement. The only difference being the address sent from, differs.

When we called the 800 number shown on the "faux statement", we got an outgoing Capital One message saying, "thank you for calling Capital One, blah, blah."

Once my husband reached a rep, they claimed they needed to transfer the call, to verify the account. :rolleyes: Next thing my husband knows, he's talking to the Northland Group (in Minnesota). They claimed that they,"work with Capital One--that the account was assigned to them for collection."

Somebody is lying--just not sure if it's one, the other or both. ;)

Right now, I believe it's both.

While Cap1 may not be bound by FDCPA, it seems that they are definitely involved in this misrepresenation, given they used the statement to get a call, and then transfered to Northland.

Northland confirms the account is now w/them. And my husband confirms he was speaking with Capital One when he was transferred to the other agency.

As such, (I'm just guessing here), but Cap1 seems to be aiding the collection agent in it's efforts to mislead and misrepresent. By allowing the use of their statement and statement envelope.

Having NOT sent out any statements in two years, and out of the blue sending one to do this? They've got to know that's going to mislead someone into thinking the account is still open, was re-opened or misused in some way....and leading someone to call and say,"hey, what gives--why am I getting a statement like I did when the account was current and open?"

I'm guessing they are counting on that.

I will post an FTC ruling on this.

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Cap1 has their own CA - called Capital One Services, LLC... was your correspondence from them?

Also, many OCs will automatically re-route your call to their own internal collections dept when you call in...

Lastly, OCs are exempt from the FDCPA (but could still be subject to state law). As such, they do not have to answer any validation requests.

Without info like company names, there's no telling what exactly is going on.

Look at Nielsen v Dickerson et al where the Household Bank was held to be a debt collector under FDCPA for the false name exception to the rule

Re-routing to an internal collection might be one thing but Lemberg had filed a class action on the call being re-routed to a 3rd party debt collector that it was deceptive and misleading.

Capital One Services LLC has been deemed to be a Collection Agency so they can violate FDCPA

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:shock: Woah.

Ok, now I need to chat w/*****. (...and THANKS to everyone who has posted--and offered such great tips/advice ALL! Sincere appreciation to EVERYONE!)

Anyway, after telling **** all the horror stories I've read about people getting sued left and right by Cap1, that their concern with getting this "pseudo statement." So they immediately started to talk about making an appnt. to consult w/someone about bankruptcy. :(

How would you guys proceed, if this happened to you (or someone you love/care for/live with)?

(Yes, I know no one here is an attorney and this isn't "legal advice.") Offering the disclaimer up front, so no one here has to. ;)

Omg--just brought up the mail.....those jerks sent ANOTHER ONE!!!

We now have two faux Cap1 statements. Wth....?! :confused::evil:

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:shock: Woah.

Ok, now I need to talk to my husband. (...and THANKS to everyone who has posted--and offered such great tips/advice ALL! Sincere appreciation to EVERYONE!)

Anyway, after telling him all the horror stories I've read about people getting sued left and right by Cap1, that was his fear with getting this "pseudo statement." So he immediately started to talk about making an appnt. to consult w/someone about bankruptcy. :(

How would you guys proceed, if this happened to you (or someone you love/care for/live with)?

(Yes, I know no one here is an attorney and this isn't "legal advice.") Offering the disclaimer up front, so no one here has to. ;)

Omg--just brought up the mail.....those jerks sent ANOTHER ONE!!!

We now have two faux Cap1 statements. Wth....?! :confused::evil:

Before mentioning bankruptcy, I'd speak to a consumer attorney just to get a little advice. Cap1 hasn't sued yet. If you have an FDCPA violation against Northland, I'd ask the attorney if Cap1 could be held responsible for the actions of the CA that they hired. If so, that would give you something to work with if Cap1 ever did sue.

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Before mentioning bankruptcy, I'd speak to a consumer attorney just to get a little advice. Cap1 hasn't sued yet. If you have an FDCPA violation against Northland, I'd ask the attorney if Cap1 could be held responsible for the actions of the CA that they hired. If so, that would give you something to work with if Cap1 ever did sue.

I agree that you don't need to rush into bankruptcy, but if you have a FDCPA violation, if it were me I'd jump on it and would not wait, talking to a consumer attorney is a good idea.

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Was there any mini-miranda from the 3rd party collection agency? They are required to let you know they are a debt collector and that they are attempting to collect a debt.

Over the phone? Nope.

On this faux statement? No. I'm looking all over this thing. No mini-miranda. Looks almost idenitical to the statements current accounts receive. We compared it to my current statements w/cap1. The envelope it was mailed in, the ads attached to the statement....identical. :evil: Some entity put a LOT of effort in to attempting to deceive those they send this to.

The more I look at the faux statement, the madder I get. :evil:

It even says, "....mail payments to Capital One" and has an address....a post office box in Charlotte, NC. No mention of mailing payment to the "third party." :confused: Argh!!

This is SO misleading.

The statement puts out the appearance that anyone getting this still has the option to deal with Capital One (the oc). But the reality is, when one calls they finds out quickly that is no longer an option. It baits consumers into calling so the third party can get them on the phone. :evil::evil::evil:

I call foul on both--the oc and the ca. Apparently, under CA's Rosenthal I can do that. ;)

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Before mentioning bankruptcy, I'd speak to a consumer attorney just to get a little advice. Cap1 hasn't sued yet. If you have an FDCPA violation against *****, I'd ask the attorney if Cap1 could be held responsible for the actions of the CA that they hired. If so, that would give you something to work with if Cap1 ever did sue.

Appreciate this incredibly sound advice, BV80. Thank you, very much.

In the grand scheme of things, it probably isn't a good idea to do anything drastic as an attempt to stop something that hasn't happened, yet (and may not). Especially when they're providing so much good counter-ammo, yes? :twisted:

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I agree that you don't need to rush into bankruptcy, but if you have a FDCPA violation, if it were me I'd jump on it and would not wait, talking to a consumer attorney is a good idea.

Agreed, antiquedave. Will get on calling a couple of leads I found (that have gone against Cap1 previously) this week. Will keep you all posted. ;) Appreciate your sharing your thoughts on this!

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Look at Nielsen v Dickerson et al where the Household Bank was held to be a debt collector under FDCPA for the false name exception to the rule

Re-routing to an internal collection might be one thing but Lemberg had filed a class action on the call being re-routed to a 3rd party debt collector that it was deceptive and misleading.

Capital One Services LLC has been deemed to be a Collection Agency so they can violate FDCPA

That's interesting information.

I need to do some more investigation on this....but it seems they may not be using Capiatl One services, LLC anymore. The faux statements attempt to direct people to capitalone.com/solutions.

Through a couple of basic searches, I found others (on credit and debtor boards) complaining about faux statements and the capitalone.com/solutions, website. Apparently it's just a dummy page set up to re-route people to the third party.

Though, again--I haven't checked the page out myself. (Don't really want it on my hard drive. lol)

Wow. This company is crazy.

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My wife received one of these statements and called the number. The person advised my wife with current new law regulations, they came come after her for the account she had in "JULY of 2000". The person said she will keep on receiving telephone calls and letters until the bill is paid. The person stated even though it's no longer on her credit report, they can still collect the debt. Folks we are 11 years past the debt and they are calling her to pay. I am trying to get more information on this tactic and how to proceed further! The statue of limitations in PA is 4 years for open ended accounts.

This is a down right false, misleading of facts and new low for this company!

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I'm not sure there is any real violation here. This statement probably did come from the OC. It's probably a lot easier and cheaper for them to do it than the CA and they know people ignore things from CAs. If the OC does still own the debt, it is within its rights to send a statement. It is also within its rights to transfer you to either and in house collection department or a third party collection agency when you call them.

IMO it's morally misleading and misrepresentation but legally? Not so sure.

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I'm not sure there is any real violation here. This statement probably did come from the OC. It's probably a lot easier and cheaper for them to do it than the CA and they know people ignore things from CAs. If the OC does still own the debt, it is within its rights to send a statement. It is also within its rights to transfer you to either and in house collection department or a third party collection agency when you call them.

IMO it's morally misleading and misrepresentation but legally? Not so sure.

There are violations and more so, if SOL for you State has expired!

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Folks we are 11 years past the debt and they are calling her to pay. ... The statue of limitations in PA is 4 years for open ended accounts.

Being past the SOL doesn't mean they aren't allowed to call or try to collect anymore (unless you live in one of the two states that specifically bar it). It just means they won't be winning any suits if you bring that up as a defense.

Send them a C&D and call it a day.

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CASES TO LOOK AT

M WISE CO V FTC

THESE ARE FTC TOO TIETLBAUM, BUREAU OF ENGRAVING, PENCIL CO

All have to do with Creditors as debt collectors

Maguire v Citicorp retail service

larson v evanston Northwestern Health Care

Suing on a time barred debt

freyermuth v credit bureau services inc

velderman v Midland Credit Management

"IMO it's morally misleading and misrepresentation but legally? Not so sure."

If it is deceptive and misleading it may be a violation and actionable

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Remember the OP is in California... the actions described seem to violate the Rosenthal Fair Debt Collection Practices Act - which does apply to the original creditor.

Any violation of the FDCPA is generally a violation of Rosenthal.

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Being past the SOL doesn't mean they aren't allowed to call or try to collect anymore (unless you live in one of the two states that specifically bar it). It just means they won't be winning any suits if you bring that up as a defense.

Send them a C&D and call it a day.

I agree to a point! In Pennsylvania we have a statute of Harassment regarding nuisance telephone calls and after advising the caller you no longer want them to call. Now the original creditor knows they can't sue or replace the listing on your credit report, so now they are INTENTIONALLY calling and harassing someone over the telephone! Once this action is taken if they continue to call, they can be charged with harassment and civil penalties.

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