SashaM

Horror story with lost mortgage payments and demand for $20K....Ocwen

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Ill try and keep this brief. My grandmother has had a mortgage on her house with JP Morgan Chase since January 2006. She has made all her payments up through October 2012 on time and without incident. In November 2008, Chase told us they were selling the servicing rights of the loan to Real Time Resolutions, Inc but we could just continue to make the monthly mortgage payments through Chase Bank (who also holds all her bank accounts) like we had been. We didn't think anything about it and just continued to pay as normal. The bank statements all show the payments but now show the payments go to Real Time Resolutions, inc instead of Chase Mortgage since January 2009.

Fast forward to July 2012, we get a letter from Chase saying they are now selling the servicing rights to Ocwen Loan Servicing and they would be sending us a statement soon. We again thought nothing of it and continued to make payments.

In August 2012, we get the first statement from Ocwen saying we owe $30K!!! They say we haven't paid on the mortgage since December 2008! We don't panic we think its probably some weird accounting issue and we send in copies of all the bank statements from December 2008 to Chase, Ocwen and Real Time just to cover all bases and show we have made payments. It was over 300 pages and we painstakingly highlighted all the payments on all the statements and included a excel spreadsheet totaling all the payments which totaled $31,546 (about $1800 more than they said we owe). Well, we got a letter yesterday saying they don't agree with the bank statements and we now owe $20K (It doesn't explain why $10K just vanished from the debt). We are shocked and now a little panicky. How do you just "not agree" with payment receipts?"

I looked up this company online and they have so many complaints and there are so may stories online like ours. Does anyone have any advice? Is it attorney time right away or are there additional things we can do? We don't have a lot of money so hiring an attorney would be pricey so we would like that to be a last resort. Thanks for any replies. xdancex

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If everything is 100% just like you posted (which I have no reason to believe it's not) you won't have to worry about a retainer or attorney fees.

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Trust me, I totally understand any skepticism from anyone. If it wasn't happening to my grannie and I hadn't seen all of the letters from Ocwen and the packet of info we sent in, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't believe any of this. I don't know how a company can just demand payment even after we sent in statements showing all the payments were made.

What do you mean? An attorney wouldn't require any deposit fees for this work? Or we should keep trying to work it out without an attorney?

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What I mean is if it all happened like you said, attorney's will be beating down your door to take the case on percentage of recovery basis. In other words it will be so slam dunk that they will get the other side to pay their attorney fees, after they sue them for who knows what type of consumer protection laws they broke.

Plus, right now, housing lenders or banks are about as hated as collection agencies. Twelve people on a jury could probably sleep through the whole trial and still give whoever is suing or being sued by a bank a judgement.

A grandma paying her note on time for all these years and having solid documentation to back it up, and then getting told they still owe 20K is a dream come true for a good attorney. As dumb as this might sound, it would be great if they foreclosed on her. Can you imagine the news. Grandma that paid her note on time every month has been thrown on the streets by the very people that took our tax money to bail their sorry asses out when they made horrible business decisions.

Again, that is assuming everything is 100% like you said and their was no adding on of things that really made it look bad for the other side.

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Oh okay, I get it now. Maybe we will just go talk to an attorney then with all our documentation and letter and everything and see what they say because we really don't know what to do at this point. I'm sure we could come up with some money for a retainer if we had to but I hope they would be as eager as you say.

In researching this issue, this is one of the stories similar to ours we found

(this forum wont let me post the link because i havent posted enough) but its on msnbc msn dot com titled "Unfortunate error' by bank and a home is gone"

It freaked us out because he still had to sue to get everything back...I really hope this is just some weird accident and it will get resolved. Thanks for your input, Coltfan1972

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Gather up evidence they sound like they are trying to forclose. Use the RESPA letter to chill them out. Don't waste time except to make written billing dispute.

This also should be reported to the CFPB because they could be targeting seniors with this bullcrap.

http://www.creditinfocenter.com/forums/1191775-post21.html

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read my threads. Try to set aside what you have been conditioned to believe a mortgage is.

Truth in lending states your credit will be changed into dollars.

Your credit is turned into PAPER dollars, not the real dollars (silver minted coins). The paper dollars will need your time and labor to give them value.They turn your credit into the paper dollars, this gives the appearance of a loan and attach 'usage fee" charges on the paper dollar currency. The word "interest" is used instead of "usage fees".

The paper dollars have no value attached to them ( since gold/silver was removed from circulation), so the homeowner needs to agree to work and give them value. The value paper dollars need is someones time/energy and labor to "inject" the value into them. (remember, no more gold/silver, no more real money to be used for a loan).

House was purchased with a number amount (credit)that represents what she "promises to pay". She buys the house when she makes the payments she "promise to pay". Can you see? The credit/numbers were only a promise to pay just to show them you will keep the promise. You buy/pay for the house when you work to make the payments, the Lender/servicer does not pay for the house, they just take care of the paper work/title.

With a mortgage, the homeowner is also giving a 'promise to pay' the lender/servicer.

They have it set up where the homeowner has to pay usage fees/charges first, then your house last.

Buy a legal dictionary and start studying the legal words and you may be surprised.

Ex: Borrower defines--> parasite.

Google "mortgage unconscionable scam" or "magic banks and their magicians" for more understanding.

If you ask the right questions, it forces them to give the right answers,

Also note, they are NOT real banks because they do not have real money. They manage your numbers and paper numbers (dollars), so they may be more like an accounting office rather than a bank.

I don't even own a house and this mentally drains me. :neutral:

Edited by machinebike

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MachineMike, this original poster is a real person with a real problem with a scumbag servicer. Ocwen is the worst of the worst. Your post isn't helpful when dealing with an actual issue.

OP, go to an attorney that specializes in mortgages and mortgage fraud. Ocwen has the absolute worst reputation in the servicing industry. Your selection of the appropriate attorney is very important and as stated above will most likely be on a contingency basis. Shop until you find the right attorney. Bring all your evidence (statements showing payments and letters from the various servicers). Do you have the mortgage statements showing you were current the entire time? If so, bring them.

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I just want to second what Denita said.

Don't go to someone who usually only handles DWIs or divorces. You need an experienced lawyer and lawfirm that specializes in mortgages and mortgage fraud or else your grandmother may be out on the street.

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I don't even own a house and this mentally drains me. :neutral:

SashaM,

I think you can see you don't want to listen to this person. While you will need a vomit bucket and a blanket, you can read his threads if you wish. However, he just rants about the government and the tired and worn our argument about how we don't really have money or credit and the banks don't really loan anybody anything. He uses the term credits in the place of money.

Machine,

It's one thing to start threads that nobody is going to read or take you serious, but now you are spewing your garbage in a thread where a real person is seeking real help. It's like driving drunk and killing yourself, nobody cares, but when you take out somebody innoncent in the process, people get angry and care. That is what you are now doing, trying to take somebody down with you by using the garbage you are posting.

Do you really think for one second anybody in the original posters position is going to mount a defense and argument like you are suggesting? Stay in your own pen and your own threads with this garbage, we are trying to help somebody with a real problem that has real solutions which the poster can use to actually solve their problem.

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Thanks everyone for your input, we are looking for a lawyer now and I think you guys are right we need to find one that specializes in mortgage fraud and foreclosures. My grandmother has a few mortgage statements from Chase showing the account was current (she didn't keep them all she just has a few showing spread out over the years but they all show the mortgage account was up to date as late as June 2008). We haven't gotten anything from Chase except letters saying they were changing our servicer for years. My grandmother says Real Time Resolutions never sent her anything but I think she just doesn't know what she did with mortgage statements from them or maybe she just through them out. She did keep all her bank statements and they show all the payments to Real Time Resolutions though. So she has mortgage statements from Chase Bank and Ocwen but we can't find anything but the original statement from Real Time Resolutions (which shows the account was up to date when they got servicing rights). Seadragon, we filed complaints with the CFPB, the FTC and the attorney general in the state yesterday. Is there anyone else we should send a complaint to? I think we will try the RESPA letter. Thanks again everyone! Ill keep updating as things happen and maybe my story will help others.

Edited by SashaM

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Send the RESPA letter and keep shopping for an attorney.

If your grandmother is able to, think about refinancing away from Ocwen.

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Oh one other thing, my grandmothers and grandfathers credit report (they are both parties to the mortgage but my grannie handles everything with money) both show the mortgage as "Open/never late" last updated 7/26/2012. Can/Should we use this as additional evidence that the mortgage has remained up to date and send this as additional evidence to Ocwen? Refinancing is something else I think we will look into, thanks 1stStep

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Thanks everyone for your input, we are looking for a lawyer now and I think you guys are right we need to find one that specializes in mortgage fraud and foreclosures. My grandmother has a few mortgage statements from Chase showing the account was current (she didn't keep them all she just has a few showing spread out over the years but they all show the mortgage account was up to date as late as June 2008). We haven't gotten anything from Chase except letters saying they were changing our servicer for years. My grandmother says Real Time Resolutions never sent her anything but I think she just doesn't know what she did with mortgage statements from them or maybe she just through them out. She did keep all her bank statements and they show all the payments to Real Time Resolutions though. So she has mortgage statements from Chase Bank and Ocwen but we can't find anything but the original statement from Real Time Resolutions (which shows the account was up to date when they got servicing rights). Seadragon, we filed complaints with the CFPB, the FTC and the attorney general in the state yesterday. Is there anyone we should sent a complaint to? I think we will try the RESPA letter. Thanks again everyone! Ill keep updating as things happen and maybe my story will help others.

And Bravo for being diligent with the other complaints. The respa letter they will have to supply paperwork from the beggining. It will also move the dispute to the highest level because they cannot take bad actions while it is in place. Also it wouldn't hurt after the RESPA letter to notify the FOX news affilliant. Then you won't have to worry about trying to contact an attorney they will be contacting you.

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MachineMike, this original poster is a real person with a real problem with a scumbag servicer. Ocwen is the worst of the worst. Your post isn't helpful when dealing with an actual issue.

OP, go to an attorney that specializes in mortgages and mortgage fraud. Ocwen has the absolute worst reputation in the servicing industry. Your selection of the appropriate attorney is very important and as stated above will most likely be on a contingency basis. Shop until you find the right attorney. Bring all your evidence (statements showing payments and letters from the various servicers). Do you have the mortgage statements showing you were current the entire time? If so, bring them.

Denita,

When confronting these servicers, the homeowwner is not addressing the REAL problem (bogus charges to a currency with no value). When the homeowner doesn't understand what is really happening, they ask the wrong questions. You need to understand so you can ask the right questions, demanding the right answers. The reason these lender/servicers keep taking advantage of someone because they know they don't understand it. Maybe an attorney will help suspend the conflict, but they cannot eliminate it because an attorney has an oath to keep and uphold the "legal" system.

Legal is NOT the same as lawful. Legal is based on codes or 'color' OF law,(pen paper,letters,symbols) NOT law. Law is based on living beings, not paper contracts.

Notice on the mortgage doc you can read "applicable law"? What exactly is "APPLICABLE"law??

I helped my mother apply for bankruptcy without an attorney. She acted as Pro Se.

You need to 'inject' confusion into them, you need to "throw them off" by asking the right questions....questions they do not expect and are NOT prepared to answer.

If you fear losing your home and do not have enough time to analyze the documents, then an attorney may be a good idea, but still learn what the right questions are to ask. If you cannot afford an attorney, go to the local bankruptcy court, or civil court, tell them your conflict and they will guide you to the right papers to fill out. But you may need to learn what they mean on your own.

Write a letter to the Servicer, a qualified WRITTEN request asking them to verify what value was given that can be refered as a loan. Did they give you credit? Its not the same as a loan, here's why:

*With a loan, the value comes from the loan (gold/silver).

*But with credit, the value comes from the payments, NOT the credit.

The credit is a number that only repsresents your "promise to pay" concerning what you agree you can earn and create the payments needed to buy your house. The promise to pay is only a SHADOW of what you can pay, The Lender/Servicer uses your 'promise to pay' to purchase your house.

They did NOT buy your house.

They take YOUR credit (your promise to pay) and turn it into paper dollars, giving the APPEARANCE of a loan. But just like your credit (your promise...) it has NO value until you work to CREATE the value, then make payments to BUY (not purchase) your house. They are charging usage fees (interest) on that shadow...your promise to pay

Can you see? They are charging usage fees (interst) on the shadow, your 'promise to pay', by turning your promise to pay into paper dollars. Because you inject value into those paper dollars through your time/energy/and labor, they are collecting the paper dollars that contain value!

They spend paper dollars that have NO value, so now they will need to collect the paper dollars from your 'bank" account because you injected the value (time/energy/labor)into paper dollars you earned the value for.

The fact they wrote "loan" on the contractual agreement makes it invalid. But if you keep belieivng loan and credit are the same thing, you will continue to negotiate over something that's incorrect or invalid.

The truth in Lending is not being honest.

Edited by machinebike

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Denita,

When confronting these servicers, the homeowwner is not addressing the REAL problem (bogus charges to a currency with no value). When the homeowner doesn't understand what is really happening, they ask the wrong questions. You need to understand so you can ask the right questions, demanding the right answers. The reason these lender/servicers keep taking advantage of someone because they know they don't understand it. Maybe an attorney will help suspend the conflict, but they cannot eliminate it because an attorney has an oath to keep and uphold the "legal" system.

Legal is NOT the same as lawful. Legal is based on codes or 'color' OF law,(pen paper,letters,symbols) NOT law. Law is based on living beings, not paper contracts.

Notice on the mortgage doc you can read "applicable law"? What exactly is "APPLICABLE"law??

I helped my mother apply for bankruptcy without an attorney. She acted as Pro Se.

You need to 'inject' confusion into them, you need to "throw them off" by asking the right questions....questions they do not expect and are NOT prepared to answer.

If you fear losing your home and do not have enough time to analyze the documents, then an attorney may be a good idea, but still learn what the right questions are to ask. If you cannot afford an attorney, go to the local bankruptcy court, or civil court, tell them your conflict and they will guide you to the right papers to fill out. But you may need to learn what they mean on your own.

Write a letter to the Servicer, a qualified WRITTEN request asking them to verify what value was given that can be refered as a loan. Did they give you credit? Its not the same as a loan, here's why:

*With a loan, the value comes from the loan (gold/silver).

*But with credit, the value comes from the payments, NOT the credit.

The credit is a number that only repsresents your "promise to pay" concerning what you agree you can earn and make payments. The promise to pay is only a SHADOW of whay you promised to pay, The Lender/Servicer uses your 'promise to pay' to purchase your house. They did NOT buy your house.

They take YOUR credit (your promise to pay) and turn it into paper dollars, giving the APPEARANCE of a loan. But just like your credit (you promise...) it has NO value until you work to CREATE the value, then make payments to BUY (not purchase) your house.

The fact they wrote "loan" on the contractual agreement makes it invalid. But if you keep belieivng loan and credit are the same thing, you will continue to negotiate over something that's incorrect or invalid.

The truth in

I don't even own a house and this mentally drains me. :neutral:

SashaM,

I think you can see you don't want to listen to this person. While you will need a vomit bucket and a blanket, you can read his threads if you wish. However, he just rants about the government and the tired and worn our argument about how we don't really have money or credit and the banks don't really loan anybody anything. He uses the term credits in the place of money.

Machine,

It's one thing to start threads that nobody is going to read or take you serious, but now you are spewing your garbage in a thread where a real person is seeking real help. It's like driving drunk and killing yourself, nobody cares, but when you take out somebody innoncent in the process, people get angry and care. That is what you are now doing, trying to take somebody down with you by using the garbage you are posting.

Do you really think for one second anybody in the original posters position is going to mount a defense and argument like you are suggesting? Stay in your own pen and your own threads with this garbage, we are trying to help somebody with a real problem that has real solutions which the poster can use to actually solve their problem.

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SashaM,

I think you can see you don't want to listen to this person. While you will need a vomit bucket and a blanket, you can read his threads if you wish. However, he just rants about the government and the tired and worn our argument about how we don't really have money or credit and the banks don't really loan anybody anything. He uses the term credits in the place of money.

Machine,

It's one thing to start threads that nobody is going to read or take you serious, but now you are spewing your garbage in a thread where a real person is seeking real help. It's like driving drunk and killing yourself, nobody cares, but when you take out somebody innoncent in the process, people get angry and care. That is what you are now doing, trying to take somebody down with you by using the garbage you are posting.

Do you really think for one second anybody in the original posters position is going to mount a defense and argument like you are suggesting? Stay in your own pen and your own threads with this garbage, we are trying to help somebody with a real problem that has real solutions which the poster can use to actually solve their problem.

Coltfan, when you write "uses the term credits in the place of money", then you also do not understand UNLESS you work for a 'bank/servicer/mortgageLender" and want the reader to believe in misleading/incorrect information.

If you believe money is being loaned and cannot verify what the money was, then who is misleading who?

Coltfan, allow the reader to understand...what money is given as loan? Show us you know. Was gold, silver given? Was paper dollars, credit given?

Explain the difference in value.

Who is the real lender and who is the real borrower (borrower defines as parasite)?

I let the reader know an attorney may be a good option if they do not have enough time...

I also let the reader know how to seek the help, and become a pro se (going to civil or bankruptcy court and tell them their conflict so they receive the correct advice/papers).

You are trying to "discredit" my posts without the information needed to discredit them.

Your choice of words discredits your replies, thats how someone can tell the difference between someone who is trying to help.

Also note, while in the legal system, do as the legal system does or tells you to do, while studying on your spare time so you can learn to address the lender/servicer with questions requiring answers involving detailed information.

Edited by machinebike

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Denita,

When confronting these servicers, the homeowwner is not addressing the REAL problem (bogus charges to a currency with no value). When the homeowner doesn't understand what is really happening, they ask the wrong questions. You need to understand so you can ask the right questions, demanding the right answers. The reason these lender/servicers keep taking advantage of someone because they know they don't understand it. Maybe an attorney will help suspend the conflict, but they cannot eliminate it because an attorney has an oath to keep and uphold the "legal" system.

Legal is NOT the same as lawful. Legal is based on codes or 'color' OF law,(pen paper,letters,symbols) NOT law. Law is based on living beings, not paper contracts.

Notice on the mortgage doc you can read "applicable law"? What exactly is "APPLICABLE"law??

I helped my mother apply for bankruptcy without an attorney. She acted as Pro Se.

You need to 'inject' confusion into them, you need to "throw them off" by asking the right questions....questions they do not expect and are NOT prepared to answer.

If you fear losing your home and do not have enough time to analyze the documents, then an attorney may be a good idea, but still learn what the right questions are to ask. If you cannot afford an attorney, go to the local bankruptcy court, or civil court, tell them your conflict and they will guide you to the right papers to fill out. But you may need to learn what they mean on your own.

Write a letter to the Servicer, a qualified WRITTEN request asking them to verify what value was given that can be refered as a loan. Did they give you credit? Its not the same as a loan, here's why:

*With a loan, the value comes from the loan (gold/silver).

*But with credit, the value comes from the payments, NOT the credit.

The credit is a number that only repsresents your "promise to pay" concerning what you agree you can earn and create the payments needed to buy your house. The promise to pay is only a SHADOW of what you can pay, The Lender/Servicer uses your 'promise to pay' to purchase your house.

They did NOT buy your house.

They take YOUR credit (your promise to pay) and turn it into paper dollars, giving the APPEARANCE of a loan. But just like your credit (your promise...) it has NO value until you work to CREATE the value, then make payments to BUY (not purchase) your house. They are charging usage fees (interest) on that shadow...your promise to pay

Can you see? They are charging usage fees (interst) on the shadow, your 'promise to pay', by turning your promise to pay into paper dollars. Because you inject value into those paper dollars through your time/energy/and labor, they are collecting the paper dollars that contain value!

They spend paper dollars that have NO value, so now they will need to collect the paper dollars from your 'bank" account because you injected the value (time/energy/labor)into paper dollars you earned the value for.

The fact they wrote "loan" on the contractual agreement makes it invalid. But if you keep belieivng loan and credit are the same thing, you will continue to negotiate over something that's incorrect or invalid.

The truth in Lending is not being honest.

Some places use cowry shells, others use big stone wheels, here in america we are starting to use electrons instead of coins. So Your argument sort of stalls out. Because we all use the electronic equivalent of what paper money used to accomplish.

So your argument really is of no value to us since the change has already occured. The people of america have already dumped anachronistic(see I can use big words also) tokens of commerce for easier to use, non bacterial transmitting, less likely to be stolen for drugs, form of money not accessible to lazy couch riders who study Nietzche.

So what does all you have said help an elderly lady and her husband who have never missed a payment on their mortgage to avoid then being taken advantage of?

No room for crazy diatribe, we are all full up here. Why don't you go live in a tent in a park with your aluminum foil hat and a sign that says "get rid of your money it is not real"

"How much are clothes in the Matrix JP" Grandma's Boy

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SeaDragon,

Gold/silver and even water is NOT man made and contains its own value, and does NOT have negative value, therefore, could be used as 'money'.

Taking someones credit (no value) and changing it into paper dollar 'bills' will turn the homeowners credit into NEGATIVE value. This causes the homeowner to work longer and requires them to give more payments to compensate for the dis-the honest charges placed on paper dollar bills.

The home owner owes for the cost of the house and fees required for the servicer to handle the homeowners paper work. The rest may be dis-honest charges because they have the home owner sign a dead-pledge (mort-gage).

Edited by machinebike

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SeaDragon,

What ever it is we use, if its man made, it will need value injected into it, otherwise, it will be debt, it will contain negative value due to time and cost to make.

Gold/silver and even water is NOT man made and contains its own value, and does NOT have negative value, therefore, could be used as 'money'.

Taking someones credit (no value) and changing it into paper dollar 'bills' will turn the homeowners credit into NEGATIVE value. This causes the homeowner to work longer and requires them to give more payments to compensate for the bogus charges placed on paper dollar bills that have negative value.

The home owner owes for the cost of the house and fees required for the servicer to handle the homeowners paper work, thats it. The rest is bogus charges because they have the home owner sign a dead-pledge (mort-gage).

:blah:

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