Sumguy123

Can a court prevent a pro se from litigating its case?

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If you were given leave to file as indigent litigant, then an appeal should also be the same way. If you will provide more detail a lot of people here would be willing to help you file a solid appeal. Even though most of the cases cited are criminal, the language of the rulings is such that you have a slam dunk on having the ruling over turned. In the order for dismissal, if you told us everything it contains, there was no grounds for requiring an attorney. Had the judge made a finding that you were an out of control plaintiff or something like that, there would be grounds possibly. Absent that, the appeals court would have to agree with the US Supreme Court.

This is true to an extent,,,but the 6th and 14th amendments only give that guarantee to criminal defendants....civil matters are decided on a case by case basis.

 

But I still say, if the judge made a ruling for no cause that he get an attorney, then the OP has a real good chance with an appeal.

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In re Gault,2 2 a civil proceeding, the Court indicated that the defendant's interest in his personal freedom, and not simply the

special sixth and fourteenth amendment right to counsel in criminal cases, triggered the right to appointed counsel.

R. Do you have a more specific cite on this case?

So, if the judge found that you are indigent, then you have a case for appeal,

 

R.  The court clerk found me indigent. I argued this fact throughout my responses.

 

and an even better case for being denied appointment of council your 6th amendment right....I would think a Judge would know better than to make a small claims case a constitutional rights case.

R. Thanks, but my research shows that civil litigants, unless a family, juvenile, or probate type issue, doesn't allow representation for indigent litigants.

You NEED an attorney now,,,

 

R.  I needed an attorney from the gitgo and now.

 

this is more than just a civil matter now. Appeal it fast and get to an attorney.

R. I agree, agree, no $$-no atty.

 

Thanks, appreciate your input.

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I just have to say having grown up in Fl. and My parents were in the law professions(Dad-paralegal, Mom legal secretary) that interfacing with judges in Florida is exactly like Dukes of Hazzard. The courts are all about the good ole boy network so to get a hearing you have to file a complaint once you do that every judge in the state becomes your enemy.

R. Couldn't agree more. I've heard these phrases quite a bit here in Fla., "good ole boy network", it's like Dukes of Hazzard--the judges are the Dukes--and they create a hazzard for themselves, the litigants, and the system in general. Not to say they are all bad, but my experiences make me wonder? I presume when you say "file a complaint", you mean a disqualification motion. If so, then I agree with the second part.

 

Just saying, You could have gotten a recusal after the first time.

 

R. "After the first time", what do you mean by the first time? I believe this judge should recuse from any further involvement in the proceedings.

 

No sack to file it again in the same court, just joking really though I would file it again if you want to continue.

 

R.  Agree & agree & agree.

 

And to answer the topic question, They are supposed to allow you to file,

 

R.  Agree here also.

 

but the court can on it's own motion dismiss any case on the docket if it is not in proper form if it is vague and ambigous, or if it is meritless,

 

R.  Agree. Or if its a case they don't want to go anywhere. Or they decide they don't like you [disqualification], reversed and remanded, etc.

 

you see it is a contest of will you appeal the ruling

 

R.  Working on a rehearing at this point.

 

or will you "Just accept it"

R.  Not.

 

Thanks, appreciate your response.

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Although an appeal is a little bit more research than bringing a case to court, it is not something that you really need an attorney for. We were just discussing a case appealed by a Pro Se and they won against Wells Fargo. This is the sort of injustice that the long term members of this board fight for and offer our opinions for.

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Has the judge made any ruling or decission in your case?

 

I would  Google and see if your state allows "substitution of a judge  ".

 

in my state one can recuse a judge if he/she hasn't made a ruling, called "substitution of a judge as of right" , if there was a ruling but a party finds some sort of a bias or other facts (such as affiliation etc.) substitution can be made , but may be more difficult.

 

I substitued once as a matter of a right and it was granted !

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I hear ya seadragon

 

I hear ya,,,,before i got my license I went to court only to have judges slam me and tell me to pay up, they didn't like me at all. I say what I think. Now that I am in the same profession, they talk to me and even had invitations to hob nob at there parties. You know those kind of parties you really don't have to go to but are still required to show up to. I hate hob nobbing with those rich "people".

R.  Good observation/point/reality check here. This is/was my interpretation of judges in general whenever a pro se walks into a courtroom. First impression, by the judge is usually a negative one, just a lack of respect toward the pro se litigant, trying to make sense of a complicated mishmash of laws, rules, statutes, evidence rules, etc. ad nauseum. But the judge keeps the poker face intact throughout trying to appear impartial, and not biased .

 

Like the attitude is the pro se didn't go to law school, or earn a law degree, so who the ________ are you to come in here, in my courtroom, and argue the law, make objections, or whatever....take a hike!...go spend $300, 400, 500, 600, an hour and get an attorney! Yea sure, lets see, I make $7, 8, 9, 10, maybe $15 an hour, got to pay rent, food, gas...sorry I'm tapped just filling the tank?

 

This is a whole another thread. So definitely agree here.... ::BigGun::

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Even though most of the cases cited are criminal, the language of the rulings is such that you have a slam dunk on having the ruling over turned.

 

R. I would hope so for the sake of justice.

 

In the order for dismissal, if you told us everything it contains, there was no grounds for requiring an attorney.

 

R.  I agree, I would love to have an attorney, just to satisfy the "good ole boy network"?

 

Had the judge made a finding that you were an out of control plaintiff or something like that, there would be grounds possibly. 

 

R.  Does putting the judge in an armbar count?

 

Absent that, the appeals court would have to agree with the US Supreme Court.

R.  Any case in particular you are referring to?

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Although an appeal is a little bit more research than bringing a case to court, it is not something that you really need an attorney for. We were just discussing a case appealed by a Pro Se and they won against Wells Fargo. This is the sort of injustice that the long term members of this board fight for and offer our opinions for.

 

R.  Sounds good to me.

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R. Do you have a more specific cite on this case?

R. Thanks, but my research shows that civil litigants, unless a family, juvenile, or probate type issue, doesn't allow representation for indigent litigants.

R. I agree, agree, no $$-no atty.

 

Thanks, appreciate your input.

Lassiter v. Department of Social Services,9 the Court

went even further, holding that a presumption exists against requiring

appointed counsel when an unsuccessful litigant cannot be

deprived of his personal liberty.

 

Gagnon v. Scarpelli

the Court held that the need for

appointed counsel must be determined on a case-by-case basis;2 6 in

some cases, fundamental fairness would require appointed counsel

for indigent probationers.

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Why did the judge rule the way he did? Why did he require you to hire an attorney?

 

R. I admit up front, I'm no Clarence Darrow, nor am I a trial attorney. But I was willing to give it a shot, but the trial judge made a ruling that he felt I needed an attorney in order to do the trial. So thats what he did do...ordered me to hire an atty. within a certain amount of days or my case would be dismissed w/prejudice.

 

The obvious problem here is: How do you do that if you, defendant's and the court know you are indigent...?

 

The original trial got sidetracked on a number of issues, unresolved discovery, several witnesses were unable to be served or appear, one witness was in the hospital on the day of the scheduled trial unbeknownst to me, opposing counsel refused to accept trial exhibits before trial, the court was made aware of these factors, but a continance of trial was denied. Discovery orders being signed off w/o my knowledge or seeing the proposed orders before they were signed off, disposing of multiple discovery motions, objections by me ignored, etc.etc.etc...."Good Ole Boy Network? "I've been working on the Railroad" "Thrown Under the Proverbial Bus Doctrine", etc.

 

 

You have been very vague and not answering anyone's questions up to this point.  

R. I disagree here. I have explained/answered the questions asked. I guess I could have done a ten mile long post explaining every detail and put everyone to sleep in the process. Don't forget as I'm posting, and at the same time, I'm also trying to do research and get my paperwork in on time to make the deadlines for the Lack of Prosecution issue. Which I was led to believe was the current issue. So if you want to go back and reread the posts/answers that's your option to do so.

 

So to get back to the issue at hand: Can you answer my question I asked previously? Should I argue in my motion for rehearing the issue of Lack of Prosecution or the Prior order requiring me to get an attorney I can't afford or both? The most recent order dismissing the case, as explained in my previous post, crossed out the lack of prosecution issue, and refers to the prior order to get an atty.

 

The case is over and dismissed now, so you should be willing to open up about every detail.

R.  The case is not over yet, it is still in litigation. As to the 2nd point, I disagree to a point here as well. Keep in mind obviously we are on the worlwide web.

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Has the judge made any ruling or decission in your case?

R.  As to the merits of the case...no. It's more convenient to dismiss with prejudice. Makes for less paperwork?

 

I would  Google and see if your state allows "substitution of a judge  ".

R.  Substitute one biased judge for another.

 

in my state one can recuse a judge if he/she hasn't made a ruling, called "substitution of a judge as of right" , if there was a ruling but a party finds some sort of a bias or other facts (such as affiliation etc.) substitution can be made , but may be more difficult.

 

I substitued once as a matter of a right and it was granted !

R.  Cool! Thanks for posting.

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Here are a couple of things to read:

http://www.flcourts.org/gen_public/court-services/bin/SelfHelpFinalReport0408.pdf

 

http://www.law2.byu.edu/jpl/papers/v19n2_Drew_Swank.pdf

 

Note that BTO is talking about appointment of an attorney which normally does not happen in civil cases, however the SCOTUS ruling in Turner v Rogers told courts they must provide much better services to Pro Se's. From the Florida Courts report linked to above it appears that the judge made a grave error that does not conform with rulings and thinking of the Florida court system.

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Thanks KentWa, I have read most of that Fla. report previously, good article for pro se's in general. I may have used some of that language in my prior papers. I don't think one needs to be an attorney to see the miscues done here.

 

Thanks.

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If it makes you feel better , I had a very similar situation, almost identical to yours.

 

Here is what happened :

 

After going head to toe with the "substitute"  I was ordered to " waive my rights " or get a lawyer or contempt of court (yes, I was inches away from contempt), I politely declined all of the above and proceeded as pro per. (some advised me against doing so , I took a leap of faith and went all in ).

 

The ruling was exactly what I thought would be, against me.

 

I appealed the erroneous ruling and won ,pro se all the way.

 

It is important to say at the time of the adverse ruling, no other soul was present in that court room except me, opponent and judge. If I ever get into a similar situation,  I will make sure to get a court reporter. Judges tend to be more cautious when one is on hand.

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Well good for you that you appealed and won and w/o a court reporter present. Generally, appellate courts will dismiss an appeal due to a lack of a transcript. This is also, a whole another thread. So many pro se litigants go to court w/o a court reporter or at least a tape recorder. Totally unaware after doing all their work, and paying $300-$400 for appellate filing fee costs and then the appellate court dismisses their appeals for lack of a proper record.

 

Maybe you should start a thread on this issue, or maybe a "sticky" would be appropriate.

 

Some atty.'s won't even take a case unless the client stipulates in the contract that the client will keep the account sufficient enough to bring a court reporter to all hearings. And if the client isn't willing to do that, the atty. declines taking the case.

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WHAT TO DO IF THERE WAS NO COURT REPORTER—THE BYSTANDER’S REPORT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS:

 

If, and only if, there was no court reporter present, you may have to prepare what is called a “bystander’s report” to inform the appellate court

 

what happened during oral proceedings before the circuit. This should be necessary only in the case of hearings at which the judge of the

 

circuit court heard evidence from witnesses under oath. If the proceeding was one at which the judge only heard the arguments of the parties,

 

for example on a motion to dismiss, or only heard arguments about evidence that was submitted in writing and made a part of the written

 

record (for example, affidavits submitted as part of a motion for summary judgment), then you probably do not need to worry about having a

 

transcript. Where evidence was taken orally, there is a substitute for the reporter’s transcript.

 

Someone who was there and actually heard what was said can write a concise, accurate, and factual account of what was said, called a

 

bystander’s report. It could be written by a party or it could be written by the person who actually said it. Such a document would typically

 

consist of a series of short, numbered paragraphs,each one setting out what was said by a particular person.

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Yes, you must present the proposed report or reports to the circuit court judge who heard the evidence. You must give proper notice that
you will be presenting the "bystander’s report to the judge" this done as “Motion to Certify Report of Proceedings".

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WHAT TO DO IF THERE WAS NO COURT REPORTER—THE BYSTANDER’S REPORT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS:

 

If, and only if, there was no court reporter present, you may have to prepare what is called a “bystander’s report” to inform the appellate court

 

what happened during oral proceedings before the circuit. This should be necessary only in the case of hearings at which the judge of the

 

circuit court heard evidence from witnesses under oath. If the proceeding was one at which the judge only heard the arguments of the parties,

 

for example on a motion to dismiss, or only heard arguments about evidence that was submitted in writing and made a part of the written

 

record (for example, affidavits submitted as part of a motion for summary judgment), then you probably do not need to worry about having a

 

transcript. Where evidence was taken orally, there is a substitute for the reporter’s transcript.

R.  I agree in part and disagree in part, the reason for disagree is: see nervousones thread on SD, I just cited a case in hid thread, where the appellant's appealed a SD case, but had no court reporter. They moved to dispense w/the court reporter bit. The COA denied this argument and cited a lack of record on appeal precludes proper appellate review. This is true generally speaking, but not always.

 

The part I agree with is as you say, SD is usually submitted on the paper evidence submitted to the court, so the need for a reporter is diminished, But still atty.'s are good at drawing inferences that may influence the court's decision. On that note it would be preferable to have reporter present in case of an adverse ruling. Or a tape recorder w/permission of course.

 

 

Someone who was there and actually heard what was said can write a concise, accurate, and factual account of what was said, called a

 

bystander’s report. It could be written by a party or it could be written by the person who actually said it. Such a document would typically

 

consist of a series of short, numbered paragraphs,each one setting out what was said by a particular person.

 

R. I agree here, most states if not all, have some type of rule allowing a statement of the proceedings in lieu of a transcript. But depends on the states rule of same. In my state the rule doesn't allow for sanctions against a non-complying appellee. So it makes it tougher to get a court approved statement for the appellate court to consider on appeal. But it is doable with the right paperwork and being diligent enough to make sure the court does its job, signs the order and submits it, otherwise the court could care less.

 

Judges don't want to be reversed, especially by a pro se litigant....ouch! Bad enough with a attorney...but a pro se...yikes!

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I didn't say it is one size fits all, one must due diligence and use every method possible to succeed .

 

What is ligit in one state does not fair in another, for instance yesterday someone was talking about using a cell phone recording in court , well last night the chief justice of IL biggest county , banned anyone from taking cell phone inside court, citing illegal recordings during trial !

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WHAT TO DO IF THERE WAS NO COURT REPORTER—THE BYSTANDER’S REPORT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS:

 

If, and only if, there was no court reporter present, you may have to prepare what is called a “bystander’s report” to inform the appellate court

 

what happened during oral proceedings before the circuit. This should be necessary only in the case of hearings at which the judge of the

 

circuit court heard evidence from witnesses under oath. If the proceeding was one at which the judge only heard the arguments of the parties,

 

for example on a motion to dismiss, or only heard arguments about evidence that was submitted in writing and made a part of the written

 

record (for example, affidavits submitted as part of a motion for summary judgment), then you probably do not need to worry about having a

 

transcript. Where evidence was taken orally, there is a substitute for the reporter’s transcript.

 

Someone who was there and actually heard what was said can write a concise, accurate, and factual account of what was said, called a

 

bystander’s report. It could be written by a party or it could be written by the person who actually said it. Such a document would typically

 

consist of a series of short, numbered paragraphs,each one setting out what was said by a particular person.

 

R.  What I meant by start another thread for the court reporter issue, is start a whole new thread, not within this thread. So as not to confuse this current thread with a whole different issue. Thanks.

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You are the Plaintiff.  Who is the defendant?  Is this a credit case?  Are you suing for FDCPA or anything?  What is the nature of your action here? 

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Is this a credit case? 

 

R. No

 

Are you suing for FDCPA or anything?

 

R. No

 

What is the nature of your action here? 

 

R. See post #14

 

Did you read the most recent post or have a response? When you ask who the defendant is, is this in regard to a credit case question?

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ok then..fraud type case in which you are the plaintiff...nothing credit related?  I don't know how much help we are going to be able to do.  This site is for credit and debt related issues, not general "I'm suing this guy for fraud" type issues.

 

Please be more specific than "fraud type issues"...since in order to help you, we need more information.  All the information in the world won't help you if it's not related to your actual situation.

 

 

People have given you information on this thread already that does not apply to you...(they've given CRIMINAL procedure or case law, when CIVIL procedure is what's required here).  Apples to oranges.

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