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Florida False Bill of Sale


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 I have not yet received a summons, but I see on the court website that a $4000 Florida small claims suit has been filed against me by a franchise law firm for CACH.  When I requested validation they sent me a BofA bill of sale, a FIA affidavit and some statement copies. I wrote back to the lawyer that I continued to dispute the debt.

 

 The BOS and the affidavit claim that BofA sold the debt to C4CH in May of last year, however another  law firm called repeatedly about this same alleged debt, with the same CACH account # commencing in February of last year. When I finally asked for a letter, and then for validation they disappeared. My credit report lists C4CH as starting to report in April 2012.

 

How can the bill of sale be correct if they were already reporting a month prior?

 

How should I handle this?   Thanks

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I think it sounds suspicious too, but before getting ahead of ourselves, could this be an instance where they were first hired by BofA to attempt collection before finally just giving up and selling it to CACH outright?

Fellow posters, any idea on if CACH also acts as a collection agency when the OC still owns it in addition to being a junk debt buyer?

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What I meant was, some OC's hire outside collection agencies to handle their collections for them. They still retain ownership until such time where they decide that they will either file a suit in their name, or sell it. I was thinking 'outloud' that BofA may have hired CACH to handle the collections at first, but then sold it to them. This could account for the dates. Never know.

I don't think CACH has ever been a 'creditor', but I could be incorrect.

It's possible that, barring the above theory, the dates being off could be your first (and knowing CACH it will be the first of many) monkey wrench in proving they lack the ability to show a clear chain of custody to the account. Others can likely offer more in the way of this defense, as I have never had the opportunity to use it.

Now, you will need to read up on the small claims rules and procedures for your state. Knowing all you can will greatly aid you in your fight. Sometimes small claims means you don't get to engage in discovery, and this may or may not hinder your ability to throw a wrench or two of your own into their vast default mill.

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As Hotwheels96 asked, does cach  act as a collector, or are they strictly debt buyers? Because if they only buy debt, then they must have bought this alleged debt well before the affidavit claims.  I think all their law firms are franchisees, they try to collect for a cut of the take.

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http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Q3dzBMuU5KQJ:www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/0/5E3D51AF15EE8DCD85256B29004BFA62/%24FILE/Small%20Claims.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#5 rules for florida small claims

http://www.flcourts.org/gen_public/family/self_help/smallclaims.shtml

http://circuit8.org/small-claims

a) Generally. Florida Rules of Civil Procedure 1.090(a), ( B ), and ( c ); 1.190(e); 1.210( B ); 1.260; 1.410; and 1.560 are applicable in all actions covered by these rules.

( B ) Discovery. Any party represented by an attorney is subject to discovery pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil Procedure 1.280–1.380 directed at said party, without order of court. If a party proceeding without an attorney directs discovery to a party represented by an attorney, the represented party may also use discovery pursuant to the above-mentioned rules without leave of court. When a party is unrepresented and has not initiated discovery pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil Procedure 1.280–1.380, the opposing party shall not be entitled to initiate such discovery without leave of court. However, the time for such discovery procedures may be prescribed by the court.

( c ) Additional Rules. In any particular action, the court may order that action to proceed under 1 or more additional Florida Rules of Civil Procedure on application of any party or the stipulation of all parties or on the court’s own motion.

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Right now it is hard to tell you what to do....Have to see what they claim in the suit and if they file in their own name or on behalf of someone....Normally with jdb's the first thing you want to do when they file suit is make sure you answer the suit, do not let them have a default judgment.....then if they claim they own the debt you attack their standing to sue by proving they do not own YOUR debt.

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Thank you for your answers.  I will post the details when I get them.  

 

The first law firm's letter states "c, llc now owns the debt having purchased it ...".  Unfortunately the letter is dated after the date the second lawyer claims as the date of sale.  

 

The first law firm started calling over three months prior to their letter.  So how can I find out if they originally called as a collector for Bofa and then bought the account or if they were calling for cach all along?

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Thank you for your answers.  I will post the details when I get them.  

 

The first law firm's letter states "c, llc now owns the debt having purchased it ...".  Unfortunately the letter is dated after the date the second lawyer claims as the date of sale.  

 

The first law firm started calling over three months prior to their letter.  So how can I find out if they originally called as a collector for Bofa and then bought the account or if they were calling for cach all along?

 

Check BofA's entry on your credit report.  If BofA has sold the account, their entry will state "sold" or "transferred".  If that's the case, note the date that BofA stopped updating (reporting).  Look for "date last reported"...something like that.

 

Once an OC sells an account, they can't update their entry anymore except to report that the account has been sold.  Therefore, the debt would have been sold around the time of the OC's last update.

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Here is the info on small claims suit::


1. Who is the named plaintiff in the suit? Cch, llc

2. What is the name of the law firm handling the suit? (should be listed at the top of the complaint.)
     Fed Law Grp
3. How much are you being sued for?
       $4k
4. Who is the original creditor? (if not the Plaintiff)
      Bofa 
5. How do you know you are being sued? (You were served, right?)
     right
6. How were you served? (Mail, In person, Notice on door)
     in person
7. Was the service legal as required by your state? 
     yes
8. What was your correspondence (if any) with the people suing you before you think you were being sued? phone calls and letter from law firm #1, letters only from law firm #2

9. What state and county do you live in? small N. Florida county

10. When is the last time you paid on this account? (looking to establish if you are outside of the statute of limitations) 8/11

11. What is the SOL on the debt? To find out: 4 yrs?
 
12. What is the status of your case? Suit served 

13. Have you disputed the debt with the credit bureaus (both the original creditor and the collection agency? No, previously disputed by phone w/ Bofa

14. Did you request debt validation before the suit was filed? Yes, written to both law firms 

15. How long do you have to respond to the suit?  pretrial in one month. Please post what they are claiming. 1 unjust enrichment  2 account stated Did you receive an interrogatory (questionnaire) regarding the lawsuit? no

16. What evidence did they send with the summons? An affidavit? Statements from the OC? Contract? List anything else they attached as exhibits. one page bill of sale from bofa, affidavit from fia,  6 mo statements, same amount "by phone" payments, no customer usage
 
 
As I wrote earlier, the BOS looks pretty fishy to me.  The affidavit claims the account was sold on a date 4 days later than the BOS says (not over a weekend either).  The affidavit also states an amount due that is LESS than the alleged last payment shown on statement copies, yet the claim states no payments have been made!  
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One of the things I learned when researching assignments is JDB's have agreements with big banks to buy off pools of debt.  Their master agreement has the agreement that they will buy xxxx number of accounts by xx/xx/xx date.  The agreement can be made up to 2 years prior to buying any debt.  They collect their "pool" of debts a little at a time.  So lets say they had this master agreement in place in like Oct. of 2011.  Maybe they got the first pools of accounts, or portifolio in nov.  They get the info, but the sale isn't complete until they pay a certain amount by a certain date.  They have the info, and some get to work right away sending out collection notices before they have actually paid the OC.

 

Then in Feb. 2012 they bought another portfolio.  That had your account in it.  They have the info, but the money they spent buying it isn't due until a certain date, in march.  So they send out the collection notices, but they haven't paid for it yet.  When they finally pay for it, they have demanded payment from alot of them in the portfoilo (the ones with higher balances mostly) and can go straight to filing suit because they already did the whole dv collection thing.  (some just go straight to filing suit)

 

Cach probably hired a CA that bills out on all their portfolios that they haven't paid for yet.

 

Is it legal for them to do that? I don't know, I guess they have a contract they are going to pay for them, might be if the OC allows it. (shrugs shoulders)

 

As far as the amounts go--I don't think they ever know how much they should be suing for.  Just goes to show you they can't count.

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These portfolios are sold as is no warranty implied, The jdb sees a dollar amount files a suit the affiant swears its true, that you owe x amount of dollars.

Even the bank doesn't know for sure.

Chase Bank example

After reviewing more than a third of the files, Almonte's team reported back to her that nearly 60 percent contained some sort of major error, including discrepancies about the amount or whether the court had indeed ruled for the bank. Concerned, Almonte went up the chain of command, flagging the errors and encouraging management to halt the sale. Instead, the bank fired Almonte and completed the deal in December 2009. Chase declined to comment for this story, as did the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, which is currently investigating the bank.

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Shellie, what you say about the portfolios sounds right, then they file with a random BOS. however I don't think they hire outside collectors and I don't think they collect for original creditors. I 

The OC does hire outside collectors.  If they can't collect, then they will either 1. have an attorney near you file suit, or 2. sell the debt to a jdb.

The JDB will also hire collectors.  Case in point my case.  I settled an account with a cA hired by Chase. MRS BPO LLC.  I paid /settled 3 accounts with chase.  They marked 2 as settled, then sold off the 3rd one to Sherman originators.  2 sales later (through a forward flow of Sherman originators) LVNV ended up with my settled account.  They hired viking services to try and collect on it. (again) I refused to pay, and they kicked it back to LVNV who then hired an attorney and filed suit against me.I won, but what a freaken hassle.  OC keeps terrible records after they charge off the debt.  It's as if they could care less at that point.  

 

Their records are usually pretty right on when you are in good standing, and most cc company's will investigate a dispute.  Once it goes to collections, forget it, they are all about tacking on as many fees as they can, and inflating the debt.  Reason being, some will settle for a percentage of the debt owed, all those inflated costs allows them to recoup more than what they would if they were honest.

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As I understand it Florida Small Claims is a court of summary judgement. You don't have to file an answer, you just have to show up.

I think if I bring up discovery, that would allow them to ask me all kinds of stuff as well.  I think the stuff these guys filed contradicts itself and I probably shouldn't give them a chance to correct themselves.  Last time I went to small claims it was about a furniture store trying to sue me for my dead neighbors furniture! I took a while for the judge to get what they were doing.

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lol like to hear that story.

I don't know about Florida law, but small claims is designed to bypass alot of court stuff.  But in my state you can still have some sort of discovery in small claims.  Small claims was made more for people who are owed a sum of money below a certain amount, different for each state.  It was so these people wouldn't have to go out and hire lawyers, and could do it all pro se.  Sue your neighbor, you sue, bring your case, and defendant brings his, no lawyers for the most part.  I think some jdb's saw it as another easy way to take advantage of the little guy because they do use lawyers.

I think small claims should be limited to pro-se only.  That would cut alot of that crap out.

Maybe judge judy will take it? ;)

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I think they absolutely pick accounts below the value amounts allowable in small claims so they can swamp pro se defendants with legalese.

It's supposed to go like, "You said you'd pay me $200 for that lawn mower, Bubba"   "No I didn't, JR, you always was a liar just like your daddy!"

Now it's professional for profit debt investors. Revolting.

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Maybe somebody can tell me if this thing is over for the plaintiff or not

Here's what the filed:

             Exhibit A, a bill of sale w/ no account specified and an affidavit to support the bill of sale.

             Exhibit B, a series of card statements (which the claim says is "the default statement"  although clearly a 30 day late statement without even a late charge is not an indication of default"

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continued....

Tthe affidavit says the sale was May 4, the bill of sale says sale dated April 23, certified April 30. 

 

The affidavit says the charge off date was 6 months after the last statement for $200 LESS to the penny than the last statement amount.

random unspecified fees etc bring the total to an amount still less than the last statement.

 

The suit claims no payments have been made.

 

Have they borked their case or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

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  • 2 weeks later...

bump...

 Can anyone tell me if the plaintiff's "account stated" count is botched if they don't have their own numbers straight according to their own exhibits?

 

Another thing I'm wondering about.: Even though their letters, Credit bureau TL, Bill of Sale all reference Bank of America, the claim refers to "n/k/a FIA card Services" as the original creditor. What is that all about? Suddenly Bank of America, NA is he who must not be named!

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