Too much information on 'Refusal to Pay' ?

[Zelph]

For fear of sounding redundant I won't bore this forum with my history to this point. But I have a question that you can probably help me with.

 

I have now been contacted by a JDB Law firm that has responded to my debt validation request. The credit card debt was written off/charged off according to their initial request for payment. No issues with their validation packet. I am sending them a 'Refusal to pay' including a 'Cease and Desist' request, (CMRRR).

 

Also, I just received my first correspondence from a JDB that claims to have purchased the written off/charged off account from a second retail credit card. I am sending a DV (CMRRR) before the 30 days are up.

 

Here's the question:

 

I was wondering if I should include in the 'Refusal to Pay' letter that I have contacted a BK lawyer and I will be choosing that relief?

 

After the initial interview I was qualified to file a Chap 7. The cost is $1250.00 and I can set that up on payments if I so desire. The lawyer has all my paper work and only needs to update my debt before I file for Chap 7.

 

The reason I held off until pressure from any judgments force me into it was that I wanted to clear up the remaining medical bills. I should have them paid in full after the 1^st of Sept 2013. I didn't want to list them as creditors causing a negative entry into my medical file. I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with them.

 

As far as the BK is concerned it would be the best path for me to take for my situation. I have 4 more accounts that I haven't had any contact with JDB's/CA's/or Law firms as yet. I checked my CR and all 6 had been written off and closed, so it's just a matter of time before I hear from someone else.

 

I found that all three CR agencies had my old company listed as 'Current Employer'. I retired in 2009! I disputed with all three and received updated responses from them that they updated my file to reflect 'Retired' as the employer. I haven't checked back but hopefully it is noted and they can stop the queries to my old company.

[willingtocope]

I would say that if you have retained a lawyer to represent you in BK, then simply include a statement saying "refer all further communication to my lawyer"...otherwise, don't mention BK...let them spend money chasing windmills.

 

Now, have you discussed paying your medical bills with your lawyer?  That might be construed as "preferential treatment" by the BK trustee and could cause you problems.

[Zelph]

I would say that if you have retained a lawyer to represent you in BK, then simply include a statement saying "refer all further communication to my lawyer"...otherwise, don't mention BK...let them spend money chasing windmills.

 

Now, have you discussed paying your medical bills with your lawyer?  That might be construed as "preferential treatment" by the BK trustee and could cause you problems.

All my lawyer has in her possession is:

 

My tax statements (3 years)

Entitlement statement from SS

Statement from my pension provider

Information from the auto/loan, value per KBB and balance owed.

My over-payment schedule from SS

All my available statements from the 6 unsecured accounts that will be or are in collection status, and statements from one closed account that I felt obligated to continue paying.

My statements from my current secured accounts

12 statements from each of my utility companies (i.e. cable, power, auto insurance)

My rent statements for 12 months  

Yard sale value of all my assets < $1500.00

 

We never discussed anything about my medical bills, I didn't even want her mucking around with them, it would have also meant getting a paid in full receipt.  I had intended to clear them up before giving her the go-ahead.  I also had 2 small unsecured cards that I paid off and closed 1, the other was closed by 'Universal Default'.  We never discussed those either.

 

Added:  The reason for not discussing my medical is because all my surgeon's, hospital and related accounts are $.00 the only ongoing item is my oncologist and I have quarterly check ups and now I will be having a CT scan.  I didn't want to be confronted at the check in desk with collection issues.

[willingtocope]

The problem is...the BK trustee might look back at any bills you have paid in full prior to filing.  I think the current "look back" period is 6 months, but it could be longer.  If the trustee finds that you have paid some people, but not others, he may ask to recover those funds so that he can take his cut and then distribute the rest to the accounts that you do list.

 

Your lawyer would know for certain what the local trustee is likely to do, and, whether or not what I just said applies to medical debt (I'm pretty sure it does).

[Zelph]

The problem is...the BK trustee might look back at any bills you have paid in full prior to filing.  I think the current "look back" period is 6 months, but it could be longer.  If the trustee finds that you have paid some people, but not others, he may ask to recover those funds so that he can take his cut and then distribute the rest to the accounts that you do list.

 

Your lawyer would know for certain what the local trustee is likely to do, and, whether or not what I just said applies to medical debt (I'm pretty sure it does).

 

 

The 90 days prior to the debtor's filing his bankruptcy petition is known as the look-back period in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy case. If the debtor has made a preferential payment to a creditor in the 90 days prior to filing the bankruptcy petition, the trustee can sue that creditor to recover those funds. The look-back period for payments made to insiders is the 12 months prior to filing the bankruptcy petition. If the debtor has made a payment to an insider, such as a friend or family member, the trustee can avoid payments made in the 12 months prior to filing the bankruptcy petition

.

Looking at my budget I doubt I'll see anyone going after the payments I've made in the last 90 days.  It would be less that $700.  Now I've made payments to my auto/loan, chattel backed finance company loan and my contract loan to a unsecured card, I was setup to pay $250.00 for 12 months on that.  I had stupidly give them my account information to automatically withdraw that amount.  The final payment was 07_01_2013.  The courts are too locked up with other issues and are releasing felons to make beds available for new inmates on a monthly basis.  Believe me I haven't paid one friend or relative anything, if the truth is known they owe me.  Maybe the trustee can have better luck getting money back from them than I have had.  They aren't going to go after me and incarcerate me because the cost would be counter productive to supply my medical needs in jail.   Maybe a night or two in jail would be a welcome relief.

 

[willingtocope]

Not sure where you got 90 days, but remember congress changed the rules a few years ago.  I'm pretty sure its up to the trustee.

 

And, the person that hears your petition for BK 7 is paid something like $60 an hour plus a percentage of what they can recover from the petitioner.  If he smells money, he might get agressive.

 

I still suggest you be completely honest with your lawyer.  You should also take note that ALL debts (except taxes and government student loans) are included in your BK, whether you list them or not.

[Zelph]

Not sure where you got 90 days, but remember congress changed the rules a few years ago.  I'm pretty sure its up to the trustee.

 

And, the person that hears your petition for BK 7 is paid something like $60 an hour plus a percentage of what they can recover from the petitioner.  If he smells money, he might get agressive.

 

I still suggest you be completely honest with your lawyer.  You should also take note that ALL debts (except taxes and government student loans) are included in your BK, whether you list them or not.

 

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bankruptcy-trustee-preference-claims-prior-transfers.html

[willingtocope]

Well, NOLO says you're right...90 days...but its 1 year for "insiders".  Depends on how much the trustee likes doctors.

[Guest usctrojanalum]

if you plan on filing BK, do not pay any medical bill 90 days before you file. you will ruin the relationship with your medical providers worse if you pay them money that a bk trustee makes them return.  look back period is 90 days, and even if its not a significant sum of money ive seen trustees go after amounts as little as like $400

[mopman64]

Ok, I think you are getting some bad advise about your chapter 7.  I also think the 1250 your paying is a joke and from what you have there is no reason why you can't do a pro se buy using Nolo press books.  I did and I have or had a lot more then you did to include and mine was a joint bk 7.  Trust me it's easy, just read.  Also, stop paying your medical bills, the trustee is going to ask why did you pay one over the other.  Take the advise of this forum and stop paying.  You asked for info and we are giving it please listen, most of us have been there.

 

Also, I don't know your life but from what you saying, you dont have much that your creditors can come after.  You have a car your paying, you rent, you get ss and a pension.  I think you would just be better off telling your creditors to try and get blood from a stone. BK should only be used as a final opt, like we call it the nuke option.

 

Best of luck to you but I think your lawyer is ripping you off and not telling you the truth and all your options. 

[Torden]

What about money paid up front, before service?

[admin]

I agreee, if you can avoid a bankruptcy, I would.  It's harder to climb back credit wise from a BK and you can fight pro per should someone come after you just like we said.  

 

I don't think BK is honestly the best deal for you.  

 

To answer your original question should you mention a BK - I say it's up to you.  You will certainly get them to stop contacting you if you do.  

[Flyingifr]

All my lawyer has in her possession is:

 

My tax statements (3 years)

Entitlement statement from SS and your creditors cannot attach this or the bank account it goes into

Statement from my pension provider and your creditors probably cannot attach this either

Information from the auto/loan, value per KBB and balance owed. and if your equity (value minus what you opwe on the car) is below your State exemption your creditors cannot attach this eiother

My over-payment schedule from SS

All my available statements from the 6 unsecured accounts that will be or are in collection status, and statements from one closed account that I felt obligated to continue paying.

My statements from my current secured accounts

12 statements from each of my utility companies (i.e. cable, power, auto insurance)

My rent statements for 12 months  

Yard sale value of all my assets < $1500.00 which is below the "wildcard" exemption in just about every State

 

We never discussed anything about my medical bills, I didn't even want her mucking around with them, it would have also meant getting a paid in full receipt.  I had intended to clear them up before giving her the go-ahead.  I also had 2 small unsecured cards that I paid off and closed 1, the other was closed by 'Universal Default'.  We never discussed those either.

 

Added:  The reason for not discussing my medical is because all my surgeon's, hospital and related accounts are $.00 the only ongoing item is my oncologist and I have quarterly check ups and now I will be having a CT scan.  I didn't want to be confronted at the check in desk with collection issues.

 

You are probably Judgment proof so you would be wasting your money filing a BK because the BK prptects nothing because everything you have is already protected by law.

 

Do a Search "Making Yourself Judgment proof". If you can't find it in here, Google it.

[admin]

 

Added:  The reason for not discussing my medical is because all my surgeon's, hospital and related accounts are $.00 the only ongoing item is my oncologist and I have quarterly check ups and now I will be having a CT scan.  I didn't want to be confronted at the check in desk with collection issues.

 

 

 

@Zelph - I hope everything goes well for you - what is going on with you that you need an oncologist?

[Zelph]

 

 

@Zelph - I hope everything goes well for you - what is going on with you that you need an oncologist?

 

 

I had surgery 2011 (stage IIIB colon cancer) - chemo until June 2012 - colonoscopy Oct 2012 (great results, next 2015) - Quarterly checkups (blood workups,,,etc) - yearly CT scan July 2013 (preventative).  Thanks for asking.

 

Thanks to all for the input.

 

I have decided NOT to include the reference about BK lawyer.  It will be my final option.

 

The reason I was seeking BK:  Credit scores are not my prime reason, input from my previous questions I determined that I would rather have the BK on my record for 10 years rather than the hassle of judgments, being called back to court for financial discovery, having my accounts resold numerous times and the cycle of DVs and RTPs that will eventually follow til the end of time (SOL notwithstanding judgments can be renewed forever).  I know that I'm basically 'collection proof' and it will only cost the JDB/CA's money to chase after me, it is that it's not something I wanted hanging over my head.  

 

You get a new perspective about what makes you happy and what's important after a life-threatening event.  I retired, gave away all my assets, sold my house, moved to and rented a place in a milder climate.  Any money I had put away was eaten up with upgrading my house for sale, losing all equity because of the economy, moving, clearing up stupid decisions I had made in years before retirement, realigning my debt so my wife would not be encumbered with my lack of 'handling paper' well and prepared for death.  

[willingtocope]

I think your reason for filing BK is correct...unless you want to make a hobby out of going to court.  And, because of the changes to the BK laws, $1250 is about right.  Just tell your lawyer everything...

 

Best of wishes for your health...

[admin]

If you're not concerned with your credit, then a BK might be the way to go.  Sucks about your health.  I hope everything continues to go well there.  

[BTO429]

We need to get a few things straight,,a refusal to pay letter need only state the account number and a simple statement that you refuse to pay this debt in full or any portion of it..no need to go into any details..you do not need to attach a c&d order with the refusal to pay letter, A refusal to pay letter per the fdcpa accomplishes the exact same thing as a c&d order. Thing is a lot of jdb and ca's do not know this. 

 

Acct number

Dear blood sucking junk debt buyer

I refuse to pay this debt in full or any portion thereof.

 

Signed

YOU

[saytar]

I know this might be a little late, but check with your medical providers on a "Compassionate Wavier". If you are mostly broke and make little, most will write off the deductables at the very least and quit billing or collecting on them. It all depends on your continuing medication cost, bills, etc.

It's worth a try.

 

I have gotten at least 1000.00 written off that way.

[Torden]

I know there are ways during BK to keep paying on a mortgage or car loan, when you can show that those things are essential, and you want to keep paying on them to keep the home and/or the car (so you can go to work if you get a job).  Given that, I wonder if there is anything similar for ongoing medical costs (for those w/o insurance), or paying the insurance premiums when insurance is involved (stopping insurance payment can lose coverage of the ongoing medical issue).  Why would a BK court choose to have someone die from a medical condition  just so a few creditors can be paid off?

[BTO429]

If you are working with an attorney, you MUST inform any and all bill collectors of this. If you leave someone out and they find out you filed they can cause you problems down the road.

[Zelph]

If you are working with an attorney, you MUST inform any and all bill collectors of this. If you leave someone out and they find out you filed they can cause you problems down the road.

I'm kind of all over the place when I explain things.  

 

I did call an BK attorney and left a message with a telephone nr and email address, told her emails would be best.  

We have only corresponded via email and snail mail (hers), we were planning to have our first sit down before I had posted here.  

She had listed the documents I needed to bring.  I have those in my possession and no one else has them.

I never gave her any usable information such as names, amounts,,,etc. only general information with estimated debt.

Medical $XXXXX.XX, Secured (auto, chattel loan) $XXXXX.XX, Unsecured $XXXXX.XX, Estimated living expenses (rent, utilities, food. medication, ongoing treatment, misc)

I did explain about my medical history and subsequent large co-pays that may force me into BK.

I didn't give any detailed information about the co-pays such as whom I owed or how much, or how much I had paid off.

I told her I was on SS/Pension and she indicated that I should qualify for a BK7.

Then I decided to follow the advice from this board and emailed her back about my decision to table the BK until such time as I might need to take that route.  She has nothing but my name, address, friend's phone and email address and general information.

 

Update

 

I have sent a DV (CMRRR) to the attorney (CC Debt), they sent a years worth of statements, then sent a RTP/CD to the same attorney (CMRRR) nothing back been over 40 days.  

I sent a DV (CMRRR) to the CA of one of the unsecured retail accounts.  Nothing yet been same 40 days.

I just received another payment request for the other unsecured retail account.  Will DV them around the 16th Sept.

I haven't heard anything from the other 3 accounts (2, CC/Retail/Citi) (1, CC/retail/Chase).

Pulled my CR on July 1st and all accounts show as Charged off, except the attorney/CC it shows sold.

 

Don't beat me up about my earlier statement I know I said she has all the documentation but in reality I had it ready to turn over to her before deciding against it based on the posts from here.