debtfighter

Auto Loan Fraud or Fiction

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Within the last month I went to used car dealer in a neighboring State.  I wanted to purchase a used car for my 16 year old son.  My wife picked one out, the salseman agreed to sell it to us for  $1,000 down.  Several days pass and he claims they are still getting the car ready.  Then he calls me and says the owner sold it for cash.  Made me mad, but he did have another car almost identical that I liked better.  So I agreed to buy it instead.  Turned out, it had a computer problem that could only be fixed by the dealer.

 

I went back to get me $1,000 down payment back.  They had another very nice car sitting by the office door.  I say what is up with this one.  The same salesman says he just got it in, tossed me the keys.  It ran nice.  I ask him when I got back, "how much."  He said since you have had so many problems, $3,000.  I said I would take it.  I already had a $1,00 down on it.

 

A few days go by and I call him.  He said he was waiting on the bank, my credit score was 563 aand I have a good job.  Should be no problem.  He calls me on a Friday and said I could pick the car up Saturday morning.  When I get there, he ask me to come behind him and watch the screen as he inputs information on the banks internet screen.   The sale price keeps coming up $4,922. 

 

Of course, by this time I realize they are running a scam on me.  So I play along with.  Went outside with son for a while and told him to video the transaction.  Went back in and quized the salesman many times about the sell amount, he promised me it was a bank glitch and it would be straightened out.  Told me to sign and go and not to worry about it.  Knowing I have him on video I went  ahead and signed for the $4,922 selling price of a car that he sold me for $3,000.

 

They made a mistake signing the paperwork and about 2 weeks later called me back to sign on e piece of paper.  I videoed the owner of the car lot as I ask him about the wrong sale price.  He claimed all kind of fees from the bank, other charges and that he would make sure when Westlake Financial sent me the papers they would be correct.

 

 

Well, guess what.  It was all a scam.  Michale J Auto Sales, Cleves Ohio and Westlake Financial out of California scammed me.  I know the parol evidence rule and the written contract overrides verbal agreement.  However that is absent mistake or fraud.

 

My question for the forum.  I applied for the loan on line.  I originally found the car lot on line.  They are in a neighboring State.  To file suit, which jurisdiction is controlling?  My resident State or theirs.  And what about Westlake Financial, who claims they purchased the contract from Micahel J Auto Sales, should sue them as well?  I never applied for credit with them, but through them for Westlake.  What about the payments?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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When I get there, he ask me to come behind him and watch the screen as he inputs information on the banks internet screen.   The sale price keeps coming up $4,922. 

 

Which is when you should have walked away.  With a credit score that low this dealership KNOWS you cannot go to a top tier lender or dealer and get a rate below 24% and that you are possibly desperate for the car and will pay anything to get it.  Actually you should have walked away when they pulled the bait and switch for the car.

 

Went outside with son for a while and told him to video the transaction.  Went back in and quized the salesman many times about the sell amount, he promised me it was a bank glitch and it would be straightened out.  Told me to sign and go and not to worry about it.  Knowing I have him on video I went  ahead and signed for the $4,922 selling price of a car that he sold me for $3,000.

 

I am not clear why you think video recording the transaction provides you with ANY protection.  ALL that will matter is the contract you signed.  The verbal promises are absolutely worthless.

 

I know the parol evidence rule and the written contract overrides verbal agreement.  However that is absent mistake or fraud.

 

The problem you have is there is no mistake or fraud.  If you challenge this now all the dealer is going to do is point to your credit score and state that with your credit this was the ONLY deal you would get and that they "tried" to get the lender to more but they wouldn't agree.  Based on what you posted I see no fraud.  You saw the price on the computer screen and signed anyway.  

 

My question for the forum.  I applied for the loan on line.  I originally found the car lot on line.  They are in a neighboring State.  To file suit, which jurisdiction is controlling?  My resident State or theirs. 

 

You have to sue them in their state.  That is where the transaction happened and that is where the case is.  I highly recommend you speak to a lawyer before you waste the time and money though.

 

And what about Westlake Financial, who claims they purchased the contract from Micahel J Auto Sales, should sue them as well?  I never applied for credit with them, but through them for Westlake.  What about the payments?

 

What would you sue the lender for?  All they did was loan you money and they loaned the amount on the application from the dealer.  You foolishly agreed to and signed a contract for an amount almost double to what they originally told you.  That has absolutely nothing to do with the lender.

 

The payments?  If you don't make them they will repossess the car and trash your credit.  563 will seem like a gift after not paying on the loan and having the car repossessed.

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Well, guess what.  It was all a scam.  Michale J Auto Sales, Cleves Ohio and Westlake Financial out of California scammed me.  I know the parol evidence rule and the written contract overrides verbal agreement.  However that is absent mistake or fraud.

 

I think mistake or fraud might be a hard sell once it comes to light that you knew exactly what was going on. In any event, jurisdiction is in Ohio. 

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Nascar, thanks for the response.  Clydesmom, you couldn't be more wrong.  The contract only over rides a verbal agreement absent mistake or fraud.  The police themselves all the time allow a person to incriminate themselves or commit a crime before arrest.  That was the purpose of the video.  I recorded the scam.  This isn't about money but, it is about fraudulent business practices.  False, deceptive and misleading with the intent to defraud.  The real question is one of personal jurisdiction.  I think I can sue them in my State since they regularly advertise her and the majority of the transaction occured on line while I was in my home State.  I'll see.  Because I am goind to file suit against them both.

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 Clydesmom, you couldn't be more wrong.  The contract only over rides a verbal agreement absent mistake or fraud.  

 

Not according to my law classes.  NOTHING you posted indicates fraud.  Dealerships increase the "out the door" price ALL the time.  The burden is on YOU as the consumer to object before you sign the loan agreements.  Saying "don't worry about it just sign" is used by car salesmen daily.  it isn't fraud. 

 

Feel free to avail yourself of the courts but if your state does not have a long arm statutes you are going to have to sue in Ohio.  Keep in mind they will have lawyers fighting your claim and in some jurisdictions you can be held to pay their fees for filing a frivolous claim.  Make sure you know what you are doing.

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Which is when you should have walked away.  With a credit score that low this dealership KNOWS you cannot go to a top tier lender or dealer and get a rate below 24% and that you are possibly desperate for the car and will pay anything to get it.  Actually you should have walked away when they pulled the bait and switch for the car.

 

Maybe I should have.  That low, 563, 600 is considered average. 

 

 

I am not clear why you think video recording the transaction provides you with ANY protection.  ALL that will matter is the contract you signed.  The verbal promises are absolutely worthless.

 

Mistake or fraud over rides a written contract.  You can't commit a crime and bind someone else over for you misdeed.

 

 

The problem you have is there is no mistake or fraud.  If you challenge this now all the dealer is going to do is point to your credit score and state that with your credit this was the ONLY deal you would get and that they "tried" to get the lender to more but they wouldn't agree.  Based on what you posted I see no fraud.  You saw the price on the computer screen and signed anyway.  

 

But there is.  I seen the salesman, over and over again put the sale price in the screen and claim it was the lenders screen that wouldn't change and promise they would correct it.  That is fraud.  And the video reflects it.

 

 

You have to sue them in their state.  That is where the transaction happened and that is where the case is.  I highly recommend you speak to a lawyer before you waste the time and money though.

 

No, I am not convinced of this either.  Because they advertise in my State and that is how I found them to begin with.

 

 

What would you sue the lender for?  All they did was loan you money and they loaned the amount on the application from the dealer.  You foolishly agreed to and signed a contract for an amount almost double to what they originally told you.  That has absolutely nothing to do with the lender.

 

I didn't foolishly agree to anything.  I don't appreciate that immature response either.  I knew excactly what I was doing.

 

The payments?  If you don't make them they will repossess the car and trash your credit.  563 will seem like a gift after not paying on the loan and having the car repossessed.

 

Not even in the equation.  Seriously......

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Not according to my law classes.  NOTHING you posted indicates fraud.  Dealerships increase the "out the door" price ALL the time.  The burden is on YOU as the consumer to object before you sign the loan agreements.  Saying "don't worry about it just sign" is used by car salesmen daily.  it isn't fraud. 

 

Feel free to avail yourself of the courts but if your state does not have a long arm statutes you are going to have to sue in Ohio.  Keep in mind they will have lawyers fighting your claim and in some jurisdictions you can be held to pay their fees for filing a frivolous claim.  Make sure you know what you are doing.

I never lost a suit yet and I have been to Court many many times over.

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Maybe I should have.  That low, 563, 600 is considered average. 

 

Mistake or fraud over rides a written contract. 

 

But there is.  I seen the salesman, over and over again put the sale price in the screen and claim it was the lenders screen that wouldn't change and promise they would correct it.  That is fraud.  And the video reflects it.

 

No, I am not convinced of this either.  Because they advertise in my State and that is how I found them to begin with.

 

 

I knew excactly what I was doing.

 

Not even in the equation.  Seriously......

 

 

There is NO way you will convince me that a 563 FICO is average.  ANY you pull from them or all 3 CRAs indicate this is a poor credit score.  I spent too much time rebuilding not to know.

 

Care to quote any CASE LAW that says that an error over rides a written contract?  You believe there is fraud.  I don't no need to argue with me.  However, if you read the contract there almost certainly a clause in there that states that a single error in the contract does not void the entire document.  Standard contract language.

 

The dealer will state the video shows your knowledge of the transaction which therefore negates a fraud claim.  

 

Unless your state has a long arm statute you have to pursue them WHERE you purchased the car.  Interesting that nascar told you the exact same things I am saying in fewer words but you are arguing only with me.

 

If you knew exactly what you were doing then you knew what you were agreeing to purchase and your fraud claim is non existent.

 

YOU were the one who asked about the payments in your first post.  Don't get snarky with me when I answered your question.

 

I will make it simple:  file your case where ever you want then let us know how it turns out.  I am not convinced you have a case at all and if you can't convince lay people how are you going to sell it to a judge?

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There is NO way you will convince me that a 563 FICO is average.  ANY you pull from them or all 3 CRAs indicate this is a poor credit score.  I spent too much time rebuilding not to know.

 

I am not trying to convince you of anything.  It is apparant you are to young to know much at all.

 

Care to quote any CASE LAW that says that an error over rides a written contract?  You believe there is fraud.  I don't no need to argue with me.  However, if you read the contract there almost certainly a clause in there that states that a single error in the contract does not void the entire document.  Standard contract language.

 

Read your tort laws and you will find plenty.

 

The dealer will state the video shows your knowledge of the transaction which therefore negates a fraud claim.  

 

Give me case law student.

 

Unless your state has a long arm statute you have to pursue them WHERE you purchased the car.  Interesting that nascar told you the exact same things I am saying in fewer words but you are arguing only with me.

 

All States to some degree have a long arm Statute.  The variable in this case is the internet and the definition of the use of such as an advertisement in my State.  Not just a passive website.

 

If you knew exactly what you were doing then you knew what you were agreeing to purchase and your fraud claim is non existent.

 

No.  I knew something was wrong.  I just let the salesman play his game and was lucky enough to record it.

 

YOU were the one who asked about the payments in your first post.  Don't get snarky with me when I answered your question.

 

Snarky!  What does that mean?

 

I will make it simple:  file your case where ever you want then let us know how it turns out.  I am not convinced you have a case at all and if you can't convince lay people how are you going to sell it to a judge?

 

Lay people.  Ahhh..  Isn't that what the laws are suppose to protect?

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@debtfighter

 

The business is located in Ohio.  You went to them, and that's where the transaction took place.   Is that business authorized to do business in KY?  See if this helps in regard to jurisdiction:

 

Owens v. Clooney, Ky: Court of Appeals 2011

 

However, controlling law is clear that these contacts are insufficient to invoke personal jurisdiction over a nonresident defendant in Kentucky. In Tube Turns Div. of Chemetron Corp. v. Patterson Co., 562 S.W.2d 99 (Ky.App. 1978), a Kentucky corporation sued a Colorado corporation to recover the balance due on a contract for payment of goods. The court noted the following details regarding the nonresident defendant's contacts with Kentucky:

Patterson is a Colorado corporation. The initial contact with Patterson was made in Colorado by Tube Turns's Colorado representative. Subsequent negotiations were conducted by mail and telephone between Patterson in Colorado and Tube Turns's Louisville office. Patterson's order was accepted by Tube Turns in Louisville.

Patterson has no certificate of authority to transact business in Kentucky. It has never maintained an office, a post office box, or telephone directory listing for the purpose of transacting business in Kentucky. Patterson has no employees or agents in Kentucky, and it owns no property in Kentucky. Its employees and agents never physically entered Kentucky for the purpose of negotiating contracts or soliciting any business.

The court ultimately concluded that "it would be unreasonable for Kentucky to exercise jurisdiction over Patterson solely on the basis of negotiations by telephone and mail which culminated in the acceptance of a single order in Louisville."

 

Finally, Owens' claim that she should not have to travel to Texas to litigate her claims against Complete Legal is unpersuasive. Owens has chosen to assert claims against a Texas corporation that is only licensed to do business in Texas, whose office and employees are located in Texas, for actions it performed in Texas. The fact that it may be inconvenient for Owens to file suit in Texas is not dispositive of the personal jurisdiction issue before us.

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BV80 your opinion I fully respect.  I am not sure this case addresses my issue, but you are always on top of it.  The most puzzling part to me is the internet solicitation in my State.  I am not so sure that the internet itself is the over riding factor.  In either case it doesn't matter.  Also, what puzzles me is I cannot find through corporate search or County proprietorship a filing for Michael J Auto Sales in Cleves, Ohio.

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fraud
 

n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. A party who has lost something due to fraud is entitled to file a lawsuit for damages against the party acting fraudulently, and the damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

 

 

Source:  http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785

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