MSWolverine

Being Sued by Lvnv- Scared and have no money!

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Pretrial is pretty much a meeting to discuss if this could be settled..

If not, a time-frame is set for discovery period etc.

 

Good luck, stay strong, be confident !

Make them PROVE they OWN the debt !  (which they won't/can't)  ::punk::

Okay, I've been trying to read up on what to expect at at Pre-trial but all I can find just doing general googling is about pre-trial conferences which from what I understand is not what this case has been scheduled for. I've read a couple different threads on here though which have helped. From what I understand now, the rent a lawyer ( I'm assuming there will be one) will say I owe this debt and then I say "That's bulls---" ( in  a nice way of course) and then like you said, settlement is discussed.

I also want to go and observe the Judge assigned to this case to see if I can get a understanding of how they operate, we just got slammed with an ice storm and am now getting hit with a snowstorm but hopefully the next week or two will be calmer so I can do that.

 

Thank you SO much for wishing me luck, I appreciate it and I will stay strong! xsumox

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@MSWolverine

Here is a link to Michigan Circuit Court--Civil Benchbook.

http://courts.mi.gov/education/mji/Publications/Documents/Circuit-Court-Civil.pdf#search="benchbook" 

This is a book prepared for Michigan judges.  it contains important info. 
The Evidence Benchbook extract, http://courts.mi.gov/education/mji/Publications/Documents/Evidence.pdf#search="benchbook", is critical for you, too.
 
Section 5.1 Pretrial Conferences
 
B. Pretrial Conference
1. Purposes
Similar to a scheduling conference, a pretrial conference may
serve the purposes discussed in Section 5.1(A) in addition to
the following:
 To identify and simplify the issues;
 To discuss estimated length of discovery and trial;
 To discuss amendments of pleadings;
 To discuss admissions of fact and documents;
 To propose limitations on number of expert
witnesses;
 To discuss consolidation of actions and separation of
issues;
 To discuss settlement;
 To discuss possible methods of alternative dispute
resolution;
 To identify witnesses actually testifying;
 To determine whether MCR 2.203(A) has been
satisfied (joinder of claims); and
 To discuss any “other matters that may aid in the
disposition of the action.” MCR 2.401©(1)(a)–(l).
 
The plaintiff's attorney will size you up and likely suggest settlement---with or without an attempt at intimidation. Others here may offer different advice, but I would observe to glean as much as possible about the judge, the opponent, and their relationship, while keeping my cards very close to the vest. At this stage, it's best if they totally underestimate you. It's prudent to come off as being very respectful of the court and its personnel. Just my opinion. Not an attorney. 
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@MSWolverine

Triplec posted this yesterday in his/her thread at post #8. http://www.creditinfocenter.com/community/topic/322618-michigan-questions-discovery-fraud-sanctions-etc/

"I found this on michbar article interesting when answering the discovery question.   It seems  these JBD's use this type of strategy..   http://www.michbar.o...4article958.pdf  "

This article will help you understand your next hurdle--discovery. 

 

BTW--did you find out if and/or how this alleged debt is reported on your 3 credit reports? If so, is it reported as disputed by consumer? Are both OC and JDB reporting? Any discrepancies or errors?

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@MSWolverine

Here is a link to Michigan Circuit Court--Civil Benchbook.

http://courts.mi.gov/education/mji/Publications/Documents/Circuit-Court-Civil.pdf#search="benchbook" 

This is a book prepared for Michigan judges.  it contains important info. 
The Evidence Benchbook extract, http://courts.mi.gov/education/mji/Publications/Documents/Evidence.pdf#search="benchbook", is critical for you, too.
 
Section 5.1 Pretrial Conferences
 
B. Pretrial Conference
1. Purposes
Similar to a scheduling conference, a pretrial conference may
serve the purposes discussed in Section 5.1(A) in addition to
the following:
 To identify and simplify the issues;
 To discuss estimated length of discovery and trial;
 To discuss amendments of pleadings;
 To discuss admissions of fact and documents;
 To propose limitations on number of expert
witnesses;
 To discuss consolidation of actions and separation of
issues;
 To discuss settlement;
 To discuss possible methods of alternative dispute
resolution;
 To identify witnesses actually testifying;
 To determine whether MCR 2.203(A) has been
satisfied (joinder of claims); and
 To discuss any “other matters that may aid in the
disposition of the action.” MCR 2.401©(1)(a)–(l).
 
The plaintiff's attorney will size you up and likely suggest settlement---with or without an attempt at intimidation. Others here may offer different advice, but I would observe to glean as much as possible about the judge, the opponent, and their relationship, while keeping my cards very close to the vest. At this stage, it's best if they totally underestimate you. It's prudent to come off as being very respectful of the court and its personnel. Just my opinion. Not an attorney. 

 

Yes.

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@MSWolverine

Here is a link to Michigan Circuit Court--Civil Benchbook.

http://courts.mi.gov/education/mji/Publications/Documents/Circuit-Court-Civil.pdf#search="benchbook" 

This is a book prepared for Michigan judges.  it contains important info. 
The Evidence Benchbook extract, http://courts.mi.gov/education/mji/Publications/Documents/Evidence.pdf#search="benchbook", is critical for you, too.
 
Section 5.1 Pretrial Conferences
 
B. Pretrial Conference
1. Purposes
Similar to a scheduling conference, a pretrial conference may
serve the purposes discussed in Section 5.1(A) in addition to
the following:
 To identify and simplify the issues;
 To discuss estimated length of discovery and trial;
 To discuss amendments of pleadings;
 To discuss admissions of fact and documents;
 To propose limitations on number of expert
witnesses;
 To discuss consolidation of actions and separation of
issues;
 To discuss settlement;
 To discuss possible methods of alternative dispute
resolution;
 To identify witnesses actually testifying;
 To determine whether MCR 2.203(A) has been
satisfied (joinder of claims); and
 To discuss any “other matters that may aid in the
disposition of the action.” MCR 2.401©(1)(a)–(l).
 
The plaintiff's attorney will size you up and likely suggest settlement---with or without an attempt at intimidation. Others here may offer different advice, but I would observe to glean as much as possible about the judge, the opponent, and their relationship, while keeping my cards very close to the vest. At this stage, it's best if they totally underestimate you. It's prudent to come off as being very respectful of the court and its personnel. Just my opinion. Not an attorney. 

 

Sorry I took so long to respond to this. School started back up again WAY to soon. 

Thank you for this though! I am going to keep looking over this to help me. I'm just really concerned about being under prepared, I know its best if they underestimate me but I also know the Judge is going to hold me to the same standard as the other attorney so I want to make sure I don't look like an idiot in front of her (I'm a horrible public speaker as it is). Am I going to need to be able to cite cases and laws etc at this pre-trial conf ( I looked over my paper from the court and it did say "conference" but I don't know if that makes a difference or not)?

 

I will remember though to observe everything I can ( luckily I've always been a good observer). I am going to the courthouse next week ( provided we don't get slammed with another blizzard that closes everything down) to observe the judge too and will take some notes then.

 

@MSWolverine

Triplec posted this yesterday in his/her thread at post #8. http://www.creditinfocenter.com/community/topic/322618-michigan-questions-discovery-fraud-sanctions-etc/

"I found this on michbar article interesting when answering the discovery question.   It seems  these JBD's use this type of strategy..   http://www.michbar.o...4article958.pdf  "

This article will help you understand your next hurdle--discovery. 

 

BTW--did you find out if and/or how this alleged debt is reported on your 3 credit reports? If so, is it reported as disputed by consumer? Are both OC and JDB reporting? Any discrepancies or error

Yes I've just looked. It is on there but whats weird is that the jdb that this jdb suing claims to have bought the account from is not on there so I don't know what that means.

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Sorry I took so long to respond to this. School started back up again WAY to soon. 

Thank you for this though! I am going to keep looking over this to help me. I'm just really concerned about being under prepared, I know its best if they underestimate me but I also know the Judge is going to hold me to the same standard as the other attorney so I want to make sure I don't look like an idiot in front of her (I'm a horrible public speaker as it is). Am I going to need to be able to cite cases and laws etc at this pre-trial conf ( I looked over my paper from the court and it did say "conference" but I don't know if that makes a difference or not)?

 

I will remember though to observe everything I can ( luckily I've always been a good observer). I am going to the courthouse next week ( provided we don't get slammed with another blizzard that closes everything down) to observe the judge too and will take some notes then.

 

Yes I've just looked. It is on there but whats weird is that the jdb that this jdb suing claims to have bought the account from is not on there so I don't know what that means.

 

BTW--did you find out if and/or how this alleged debt is reported on your 3 credit reports? If so, is it reported as disputed by consumer? Are both OC and JDB reporting? Any discrepancies or errors?

In order to defend against an Account Stated claim, it's important for you to know the answers to these questions:

1.) Is this debt reported on all 3 of your credit reports?

2.) Is it reported as "disputed by consumer"? On all 3?

3.) Is the alleged Original Creditor (OC), ie Chase, reporting?

4.) Are there any discrepancies or errors (like dates and/or $ amounts)--between the 3 reports and compared to your Complaint/ JDB Affidavit?

 

Did you submit your counter-affidavit of denial? Do you need to amend your answer? If you feel you do, your pre-trial conference would be a good time to discuss it. 

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As promised, in addition to the link to Peter Holland's article in my post #193, here are a few more articles on defending credit card debt cases. Unfortunately I could not find one specifically for Michigan. Many laws/rules are similar from state to state, but some are NOT.

"Defense of Assigned Consumer Debt," by California attorney Clinton Rooney:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.courts.ca.gov%2Fpartners%2Fdocuments%2F2011SRL5eRooney.pdf&ei=AJnYUpe1H8O-sQTSxoLQDA&usg=AFQjCNFpG9N50WMFhSgUCxGia5j0kdsZeQ&sig2=h0PcOIbaPSGbOLP3f-o5DQ&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cWc

 

"How to Defend A Credit Card Case," by Texas attorney Jessica Lesser:

http://warybuyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/How-To-Defend-a-Credit-Card-Case.pdf

 

"Defending Debt Collection Suits (Often the Best Defense is a Good Offense...)," byTexas attorney Jerry Jarzombek:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.gonzaga.edu%2Ffiles%2FJarzombek-Defending-Debt-Collection-Suits.pdf&ei=qZnYUrSSAYumsQTq0ICgDw&usg=AFQjCNFsKW1Q0QSd5jLEckGgYyAGmDWpiQ&sig2=ZzSFrzDQx5bmVq8LqHTWhw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cWc

 

 

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As promised, in addition to the link to Peter Holland's article in my post #193, here are a few more articles on defending credit card debt cases. Unfortunately I could not find one specifically for Michigan. Many laws/rules are similar from state to state, but some are NOT.

"Defense of Assigned Consumer Debt," by California attorney Clinton Rooney:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.courts.ca.gov%2Fpartners%2Fdocuments%2F2011SRL5eRooney.pdf&ei=AJnYUpe1H8O-sQTSxoLQDA&usg=AFQjCNFpG9N50WMFhSgUCxGia5j0kdsZeQ&sig2=h0PcOIbaPSGbOLP3f-o5DQ&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cWc

 

"How to Defend A Credit Card Case," by Texas attorney Jessica Lesser:

http://warybuyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/How-To-Defend-a-Credit-Card-Case.pdf

 

"Defending Debt Collection Suits (Often the Best Defense is a Good Offense...)," byTexas attorney Jerry Jarzombek:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.gonzaga.edu%2Ffiles%2FJarzombek-Defending-Debt-Collection-Suits.pdf&ei=qZnYUrSSAYumsQTq0ICgDw&usg=AFQjCNFsKW1Q0QSd5jLEckGgYyAGmDWpiQ&sig2=ZzSFrzDQx5bmVq8LqHTWhw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cWc

THANK YOU!! I have read the Peter Holland article ( in fact it's sitting next to me all nice and underlined as I type) and I will definitely make sure to read these too. Thanks for all your help!

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So I had my pre-trial conference.

 

I could NOT have been more scared, I was almost late because the roads were absolutely treacherous. Thankfully no one else was in the courtroom when I got there so I had a little time to try and calm myself.

 

I honestly don't know what to think coming out of it. The rent a lawyer was polite, we did brief introductions with each other and they told me the pre-trial would only be about a minute, then I got asked " you want to go forward right?" to which I just answered yes and that was pretty much all I directly talked to the attorney ( well other than it being announced that the attorney brought the wrong briefcase and didn't really have anything on them). Got in front of the judge and basically the rent a lawyer asked for 60 days discovery and that was set. Rent a lawyer also told the judge that the plaintiffs wanted to set a motion date but the judge said they had to call and set that up. The last thing is what I'm really not sure how to think about it ; the judge asked if we wanted to step outside and discuss settlement and I said "No your honor, not at this point." and the judge just gave me this funny look, I wish I knew of a gif to use to show an example of it but it basically was like  "Really?" . I pretty much got asked why and I said that there was no proof of ownership of the account on the plaintiff's part and I had no recollection of the alleged debt, the judge then looked down again at the papers and said "Oh so you don't remember having this card" and that was pretty much it.

 

So now I guess it's on for discovery. Oh boy.... xsumox

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Being scared is pretty common. I'd probably be more concerned if you were dead calm about it. Sounds like the judge is going to be difficult. Probably thinks you should just settle and not waste the courts time. Oh well, too bad for him.

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So I had my pre-trial conference.

 

I could NOT have been more scared, I was almost late because the roads were absolutely treacherous. Thankfully no one else was in the courtroom when I got there so I had a little time to try and calm myself.

 

I honestly don't know what to think coming out of it. The rent a lawyer was polite, we did brief introductions with each other and they told me the pre-trial would only be about a minute, then I got asked " you want to go forward right?" to which I just answered yes and that was pretty much all I directly talked to the attorney ( well other than it being announced that the attorney brought the wrong briefcase and didn't really have anything on them). Got in front of the judge and basically the rent a lawyer asked for 60 days discovery and that was set. Rent a lawyer also told the judge that the plaintiffs wanted to set a motion date but the judge said they had to call and set that up. The last thing is what I'm really not sure how to think about it ; the judge asked if we wanted to step outside and discuss settlement and I said "No your honor, not at this point." and the judge just gave me this funny look, I wish I knew of a gif to use to show an example of it but it basically was like  "Really?" . I pretty much got asked why and I said that there was no proof of ownership of the account on the plaintiff's part and I had no recollection of the alleged debt, the judge then looked down again at the papers and said "Oh so you don't remember having this card" and that was pretty much it.

 

So now I guess it's on for discovery. Oh boy.... xsumox

Sounds like your "nice" judge wanted this matter over and out of her court room. You did what you were supposed to do here--not admit and roll over, rather make them work to prove it. Game on. Get cracking on drafting your Discovery requests. Prepare yourself to receive some very intimidating Discovery requests from them. Keep track of your file to see what motion they file. 

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Being scared is pretty common. I'd probably be more concerned if you were dead calm about it. Sounds like the judge is going to be difficult. Probably thinks you should just settle and not waste the courts time. Oh well, too bad for him.

Haha true, I think I would've been more concerned if I felt calm about it.

I don't know if I would've used the word "difficult" to describe the judge but who knows what will happen down the line, I just wonder if this judge has ever actually seen anyone actively fight back. When I observed last week, it was one default judgement after another. I only saw one pre-trial actually go through and it wasn't an jdb case.

 

Sounds like your "nice" judge wanted this matter over and out of her court room. You did what you were supposed to do here--not admit and roll over, rather make them work to prove it. Game on. Get cracking on drafting your Discovery requests. Prepare yourself to receive some very intimidating Discovery requests from them. Keep track of your file to see what motion they file. 

Well good I'm glad you think I did what I was supposed to do( I had you guys in the back my head the whole time when thinking about what I was supposed to do and say).

I definitely plan to "get cracking" on the discovery requests, I went to the law library and looked at discovery and interrogatory examples and I'm hoping that will be a big help.

 

What about the the plaintiff wanting to set a motion date? Is this something I should be worried about?

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What about the the plaintiff wanting to set a motion date? Is this something I should be worried about?

 

Could be they wanted to set a motion cut-off date .......... could be they wanted to set a date for a MSD ......... could be the 'lawyer' didn't know what else to say. I wouldn't worry about it until/if they file a motion.

 

Keep an eye on your court docket.

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Could be they wanted to set a motion cut-off date .......... could be they wanted to set a date for a MSD ......... could be the 'lawyer' didn't know what else to say. I wouldn't worry about it until/if they file a motion.

 

Keep an eye on your court docket.

I thought it was for an MSD but I think you are right in that the lawyer didn't know what else to say ( like I said before, they flat out admitted to not having what they needed).

My court's docket isn't online so I do I keep track of it? I thought they were just supposed send me notice in the mail.

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My court's docket isn't online so I do I keep track of it? I thought they were just supposed send me notice in the mail.

 

I guess you could make a trip to the courhouse once a week and see if anything new has been filed in your case.

You are supposed to be notified of motions and what not but, mistakes do happen.

Be vigilant.

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I think you're doing fine. Judges are used to most debtors getting default judgments against them, so he was taken aback by your stand.

 

Now you are going to have to make opposing counsel earn their money with a vigorous defense.  You can do it.

Thank you for your support! And yes it's like I said before, when I observed the judge the week before my pre-trial it was one default judgement after another so this might be a shock to the judge that I wasn't rolling over then and there.  

I'm going to do everything I can to beat this!

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@MSWolverine

Here are 2 examples of a NJ attorney's boilerplate Discovery requests to give you an idea. Any court rule mentioned is NJ not MI. CIC has many examples (Michigan's AntiqueDave for one) from many posters with great ideas. I would not cut and paste without first understanding the aim of the request--and if it applies. Stern's website has lots of documents used in court.

http://philipstern.com/docs.html

 

The original creditor is the now infamously OCC-sanctioned Chase, with multiple JDB assignments, so questions concerning the accuracy, integrity and completeness of the data and documents, and the steps the JDB took to verify same would be important areas for Discovery, IMO, but IANAL. The Attorneys General of California and Mississippi are currently suing Chase; those AG complaints are worth reading. Since you have <60 days to complete discovery, you may have time to send a second round. They will likely stall, claiming they've ordered documents, and object to most of your requests. Admissions are a very useful tool (it works both ways, though) to keep things timely. If Admission responses aren't received within 28 days after service, they are deemed admitted. MCR 2.312 ()(1). That law review article on Discovery I gave you has a good strategy. To save you from the headache we experienced, be sure to include instructions with terms defined and appropriate MCR cites before you launch into your requests. 

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Well I got a MSD in the mail as I was working on my discovery.

 

I'm not shocked by this, I knew it was coming not only from what you guys have told me but also because of the rent a lawyer asking about filing a motion date. However, it still felt like a punch in the gut.

 

I haven't seen a proper form in posting an MSD ( like there is a summons and complaint) so I apologize if I am doing this wrong.

 

It starts with the off with the heading "Now comes the plaintiff... in support of its Motion for summary disposition:

 

1. Brought under MCR 2.116 ©(9) and/or(10).

2. Complaint is based on Affidavit of Account stated which was attached to plaintiffs complaint and which is incorporated herein by reference (MCL 600.2145)

3. Attached as Exhibit A is portion of the Chain of Assignment to verify Plantiff's ownership of the Defendant's account.

4.) Attached as Exhibit B are copies of detailed account statements that were sent to the Defendant. Statements indicate payments,purchases, interest and fees that accrued on the account and the statements are attached to further demonstrate defendant's knowledge of account.

WHEREFORE Plaintiff requests this court grant Summary Disposition in favor of the Plaintiff and against Defendant....

 

There is then a Brief in support of Motion for summary disposition where it basically repeats paragraph 4 in the MSD and then repeats that the Plaintiff is entitled to summary disposition based on MCR2.116©(9) and (10) and entry of judgement including attorney fees.

 

That's all the writing which shocks me because I was expecting an attorney to put a little more effort into arguments.

 

So the Exhibits:

Exhibit A: Bill of Sale and Assignment of Accounts

Vion Holdings LLC organized under the laws of Delaware  hereby absolutely sells,transfers, assigns,sets over and conveys to Sherman Originator LLC without recourse and representations or warranties,express or implied, of any type kind or nature except as set forth in the agreement.

 

A. all of sellers rights,title,and interest in and to each of the Accounts identified in the account schedule attached.

B. All principal,interest or other proceeds of any kind with respect to the accounts, but excluding any payments or other consideration received by or on behalf of seller on March 31,2013.

 

Bill of sale is being executed and delivered pursuant in accordance with terms and provisions of purchase and sale agreement entered between seller and buyer on 5/9/2013.

 

Bill of sale governed by laws in New York and is signed by a guy who identifies himself as general counsel. It's notarized by a notary in Georgia.

 

Next is a Transfer and Assignment from Sherman Originator to LVNV.

 

There is then pages of what I guess is the account schedule, to me it all it seems to be a basic computer printout with rows of file names from Vion and line numbers and the rest of the information has been redacted. On one page there is even information blacked out.

 

I'm still going through the exhibit B- the account statements. However it says on the first one that it's not the original but copies. Can't I still ask in discovery to see originals?

 

They also set  hearing date that's in two weeks.

 

This has just completely thrown me off ( and again I know it shouldn't of), do I still send production of document requests ( discovery is still supposed to be going)? When is my Opp MSD due?

Should I panic ( more than I already have been)?

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