jimmy1611

623 Dispute Method Step 1 (criticism requested)

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

 

 You're correct that the furnisher will not be liable if you only dispute with the furnisher. 

 

You are not required to dispute directly with the furnisher AT ALL in order for the furnisher to be liable for verifying incorrect information.  Verifying incorrect information with the CRAs is what causes the violation. 

 

The only reasons one might want to dispute directly with the furnisher after it has verified the information is to either make the furnisher tired of you and cause it to possibly delete the entry OR to try to prove "willfulness" on the part of the furnisher.

 

Penalties under the FCRA are based upon either willfulness or actual damages.  In order to be awarded the statutory penalty of $1000, you must show that the furnisher willingly (knowingly) violated the Act.   If you can't show that, no statutory penalty.  Read 1681n

 

Per 1681o, if you can only show negligence, you can only receive actual damages.  If you have no actual damages, no award.

 

And keep in mind, if the furnisher is a JDB or other CA, they are also violating the FDCPA by verifiying false information to the CRA after a dispute only directly with the CRA.  You never have to directly contact a JDB at all in order to get two violations on them when they verify a dispute with the CRAs.

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

Ok, explain how MOV can be effective without using data from the original data furnisher.

 

The CRA has to provide you with "a description of the procedure used to determine the accuracy and completeness of the information shall be provided to the consumer by the agency, including the business name and address of any furnisher of information contacted in connection with such information and the telephone number of such furnisher, if reasonably available." (quoted from 1681s-2(6)(B)(3))

 

The MOV is the responsibility of the CRAs, not the furnisher.   When the CRAs response to the MOV, if you can prove information provided and verified was incorrect, and the CRA refuses to correct or remove that information, you have a violation against the CRA.

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And keep in mind, if the furnisher is a JDB or other CA, they are also violating the FDCPA by verifiying false information to the CRA after a dispute only directly with the CRA.  You never have to directly contact a JDB at all in order to get two violations on them when they verify a dispute with the CRAs.

My question is how does an MOV work without a 623 inquiry?

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

 

The CRA has to provide you with "a description of the procedure used to determine the accuracy and completeness of the information shall be provided to the consumer by the agency, including the business name and address of any furnisher of information contacted in connection with such information and the telephone number of such furnisher, if reasonably available." (quoted from 1681s-2(6)(B)(3))

 

The MOV is the responsibility of the CRAs, not the furnisher.   When the CRAs response to the MOV, if you can prove information provided and verified was incorrect, and the CRA refuses to correct or remove that information, you have a violation against the CRA.

How do you "prove information provided and verified was incorrect..." without a 623 inquiry ?

Let me put a different way, describe the last response you got to an MOV?

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@cinnamngrl

 

How do you "prove information provided and verified was incorrect..." without a 623 inquiry ?

 

 

Bank statements, credit card statements, and collection letters.  If none of those things contain any information that will help you, and you have no proof that information is incorrect, how can you sue for violations?  If you sue, you have to prove your case.

 

Disputing with the CRAs is an attempt to either correct information that you can prove is wrong OR, in the absence of proof, to hope that a negative entry will simply be deleted.

 

If you're referring to disputing directly with the furnisher, are you thinking that the furnisher must provide you with documentation?

 

The last response I got from a CRA in regard to a MOV merely included the name and address of the furnisher, that they had contacted the furnisher, and the furnisher verified the information.    Now, if I had proof that information was incorrect, I could have nailed the CRA, but I didn't have any proof.

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

The last response I got from a CRA in regard to a MOV merely included the name and address of the furnisher, that they had contacted the furnisher, and the furnisher verified the information.    Now, if I had proof that information was incorrect, I could have nailed the CRA, but I didn't have any proof.

If you had contacted the credit furnisher directly, you would be able to prove whether the information was correct.

1. The data that the furnisher sends you must equal the information they send the CRA.

2. The CRA does not have to investigate anything but whether they are reporting the information they get.

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

 

If you're referring to disputing directly with the furnisher, are you thinking that the furnisher must provide you with documentation?

 .

They can't provide information to the CRA that they refuse to provide to the consumer. That how a real MOV works and why I think that it is part of the 623 method .

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How do you "prove information provided and verified was incorrect..." without a 623 inquiry ?

Let me put a different way, describe the last response you got to an MOV?

 

The last (and EVERY) response I got to an MOV request was a generic form letter describing the steps the CRA takes when a TL dispute is submitted to them.   They never included the requested name & address of the person that verified the information to them.  This is a violation of 1681i(a)(6)(B)(iii).  However, in order to reduce their exposure to this violation, the CRA decided to remove the TL (regardless of the fact that the furnisher verified the information a couple weeks prior).  If they do not remove the TL and also do not provide all of the requested information as required under 1681i(a)(6)(B)(iii) then I would file an arbitration claim against the CRA.  CRAs tend to settle rather quickly and can include TL deletion as part of the settlement.

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The last (and EVERY) response I got to an MOV request was a generic form letter describing the steps the CRA takes when a TL dispute is submitted to them.   They never included the requested name & address of the person that verified the information to them.  This is a violation of 1681i(a)(6)(B)(iii).  However, in order to reduce their exposure to this violation, the CRA decided to remove the TL (regardless of the fact that the furnisher verified the information a couple weeks prior).  If they do not remove the TL and also do not provide all of the requested information as required under 1681i(a)(6)(B)(iii) then I would file an arbitration claim against the CRA.  CRAs tend to settle rather quickly and can include TL deletion as part of the settlement.

How many deletions, and how many non deletions?

Are you saying that you have not contacted the credit furnishers?

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They can't provide information to the CRA that they refuse to provide to the consumer. That how a real MOV works and why I think that it is part of the 623 method .

 

Where is that stated in the FCRA?   Where in the FCRA does it require furnishers to send documentation to the consumer?

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If you had contacted the credit furnisher directly, you would be able to prove whether the information was correct.

1. The data that the furnisher sends you must equal the information they send the CRA.

2. The CRA does not have to investigate anything but whether they are reporting the information they get.

 

That doesn't prove it is correct information.  They can verify a balance of $5000 to the CRA and send me a letter stating the balance is $5000, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

 

How many deletions, and how many non deletions?

Are you saying that you have not contacted the credit furnishers?

 

11 MOV requests sent.  11 deletions.  (All with collection accounts - I have not yet used MOV on an OC. I know of other people who have had MOV on an OC not result in a deletion). I have never once contacted a furnisher. I have no reason to.

 

I send a dispute to the CRA.  If the TL is verified I will either file suit / arbitration against the furnisher, OR Send an MOV.  I haven't had to do it yet, but if MOV response is not proper and TL remains, I will file an arbitration with the CRA and force a deletion in a settlement.

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Where is that stated in the FCRA?   Where in the FCRA does it require furnishers to send documentation to the consumer?

The law states that furnisher has to make a reasonable effort to investigate the dispute.

 

(E) Duty of person after receiving notice of dispute. After receiving

a notice of dispute from a consumer pursuant to subparagraph

(D), the person that provided the information in dispute to a

consumer reporting agency shall –

(i) conduct an investigation with respect to the disputed information;

(ii) review all relevant information provided by the consumer

with the notice;

(iii) complete such person’s investigation of the dispute and report

the results of the investigation to the consumer before

the expiration of the period under section 611(a)(1) within

which a consumer reporting agency would be required to

complete its action if the consumer had elected to dispute

the information under that section; and

84

§ 623 - 15 U.S.C. § 1681s-2

(iv) if the investigation finds that the information reported was

inaccurate, promptly notify each consumer reporting agency

to which the person furnished the inaccurate information

of that determination and provide to the agency any

correction to that information that is necessary to make the

information provided by the person accurate.

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The law states that furnisher has to make a reasonable effort to investigate the dispute.

 

(E) Duty of person after receiving notice of dispute. After receiving

a notice of dispute from a consumer pursuant to subparagraph

(D), the person that provided the information in dispute to a

consumer reporting agency shall –

(i) conduct an investigation with respect to the disputed information;

(ii) review all relevant information provided by the consumer

with the notice;

(iii) complete such person’s investigation of the dispute and report

the results of the investigation to the consumer before

the expiration of the period under section 611(a)(1) within

which a consumer reporting agency would be required to

complete its action if the consumer had elected to dispute

the information under that section; and

84

§ 623 - 15 U.S.C. § 1681s-2

(iv) if the investigation finds that the information reported was

inaccurate, promptly notify each consumer reporting agency

to which the person furnished the inaccurate information

of that determination and provide to the agency any

correction to that information that is necessary to make the

information provided by the person accurate.

 

 

"We investigated your concerns and find that this is being reported accurately.  Thanks, The Furnisher."

 

....... Now what do you do?

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That doesn't prove it is correct information.  They can verify a balance of $5000 to the CRA and send me a letter stating the balance is $5000, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

If you dispute the information they have to investigate. if you can show proof how the balance is different than $5000 then they have to correct it or delete.  

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"We investigated your concerns and find that this is being reported accurately.  Thanks, The Furnisher."

 

....... Now what do you do?

file a complaint with a federal regulating agency.  This is not a reasonable response. 

 

 

Look would you be willing to try the 623 method on your OC's?

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

The last response I got from a CRA in regard to a MOV merely included the name and address of the furnisher, that they had contacted the furnisher, and the furnisher verified the information.    Now, if I had proof that information was incorrect, I could have nailed the CRA, but I didn't have any proof.

Would you be willing to try again?

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file a complaint with a federal regulating agency.  This is not a reasonable response. 

 

 

Look would you be willing to try the 623 method on your OC's?

 

I did once, a very long time ago before I ever actually read the statutes and learned the laws.  I simply went by what some website (probably one of those boards that have since closed down) which outlined a 3 page letter to send to the OC and which cited parts of the FCRA, which I know today was mostly inapplicable to the matter at hand.  The results I got was; "We investigated your concerns and find that this is being reported accurately.  Thanks, OC."

 

After spending another couple years learning the consumer laws and reading statutes and case laws, the next time I disputed an OC TL and it was verified, I went straight to arbitration for their violation of verifying incorrect information to the CRA.  30 days later, I had the TL removed and a check in my hand for their violations.  To me, that is much more easier, effective and efficient than a large letter writing campaign and filing complaints with groups that may or may not do anything.

 

You are completely welcome to use the 623 Method.  All I am saying is that I find it to be pointless and without teeth.  I prefer to use the parts of the FCRA that give me the right to sue or arbitrate when the outcome is not desirable.  Those methods have worked well for me.

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I did once, a very long time ago before I ever actually read the statutes and learned the laws.  I simply went by what some website (probably one of those boards that have since closed down) which outlined a 3 page letter to send to the OC and which cited parts of the FCRA, which I know today was mostly inapplicable to the matter at hand.  The results I got was; "We investigated your concerns and find that this is being reported accurately.  Thanks, OC."

 

After spending another couple years learning the consumer laws and reading statutes and case laws, the next time I disputed an OC TL and it was verified, I went straight to arbitration for their violation of verifying incorrect information to the CRA.  30 days later, I had the TL removed and a check in my hand for their violations.  To me, that is much more easier, effective and efficient than a large letter writing campaign and filing complaints with groups that may or may not do anything.

 

You are completely welcome to use the 623 Method.  All I am saying is that I find it to be pointless and without teeth.  I prefer to use the parts of the FCRA that give me the right to sue or arbitrate when the outcome is not desirable.  Those methods have worked well for me.

I did use it and my credit score is 774

Would you try again?

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@cinnamngrl

 

The law requires that the credit furnisher respond to the specific dispute.

 

Responding to the request and providing documentation are 2 different things.  A response can be "we investigated and the information is correct."   There is no part of the FCRA that states that a response to a consumer in any way includes documentation.

 

Again, even though the FCRA requires a furnisher to respond, you could not sue the furnisher if they didn't respond.

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

Responding to the request and providing documentation are 2 different things.  A response can be "we investigated and the information is correct."   There is no part of the FCRA that states that a response to a consumer in any way includes documentation.

 

Again, even though the FCRA requires a furnisher to respond, you could not sue the furnisher if they didn't respond.

You can sue if you have also filed a CRA dispute

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@cinnamngrl

 

 

 

 

Yes, you can.  But you CANNOT include a claim that the furnisher failed to respond to you after disputing with that furnisher.

§ 623 - 15 U.S.C. § 1681s-2 8 E.iii says that they are required to respond

 

we can keep going back and forth or you can give it another try and prove me wrong

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