Thomas2

Arbitration award, costs, and appeal

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16 hours ago, Thomas2 said:

It lays to rest I believe the erroneous belief that they can recoup those fees from either JAMS or AAA in consumer arbitration. In this regards, no matter what is the final end point for my particular case, it is good news for consumers. 

Thank you for sharing your journey with this forum. It provided a lot of lively discussion. I'm sorry the outcome didn't go your way. ^^^This is indeed good news for consumers! Best of luck if you find a way to fight on. 

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2 hours ago, Brotherskeeper said:
 
 

Thank you for sharing your journey with this forum. It provided a lot of lively discussion. I'm sorry the outcome didn't go your way. ^^^This is indeed good news for consumers! Best of luck if you find a way to fight on. 

Even though I will still need to work out the final options on the amount that is still owed whether through a further court challenge, being "judgment proof", or even BK, I consider this appeal a win. The amount of the cost shifting was extremely high & that was vacated. 

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4 hours ago, BV80 said:
 
 

I forgot that this was not in court, so there is no court ruling.  In regard to the appeal panel’s decision, is it available for other consumers to access?  

That I don't know. Sorry. Are these usually available or completely private? 

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54 minutes ago, Thomas2 said:

That I don't know. Sorry. Are these usually available or completely private? 

I don’t know if they’re available or not.  

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I can't wait until the next lawyer uses the old "arbitration can be veeeery expensive line," and someone can now say, with total confidence,  "yea - for your client, Bozo."

 

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On 7/11/2020 at 2:04 PM, Thomas2 said:

That I don't know. Sorry. Are these usually available or completely private? 

It's not true that this is necessarily over. If you think you can prove it, there are grounds for vacating arbitration awards based on a few narrow grounds per the Fed Arb Act (FAA). They are not common but not completely unheard of.  According to the FAA:

(a) In any of the following cases the United States court in and for the district wherein the award was made may make an order vacating the award upon the application of any party to the arbitration—

(1)
where the award was procured by corruption, fraud, or undue means;
(2)
where there was evident partiality or corruption in the arbitrators, or either of them;
(3)
where the arbitrators were guilty of misconduct in refusing to postpone the hearing, upon sufficient cause shown, or in refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy; or of any other misbehavior by which the rights of any party have been prejudiced; or
(4)
where the arbitrators exceeded their powers, or so imperfectly executed them that a mutual, final, and definite award upon the subject matter submitted was not made.
 
Again hard to do/prove. But if you can make a convincing case of bias, you can at least challenge it in court and may give you a bit of leverage for settlement.
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31 minutes ago, defaultjudgment said:

It's not true that this is necessarily over. If you think you can prove it, there are grounds for vacating arbitration awards based on a few narrow grounds per the Fed Arb Act (FAA). They are not common but not completely unheard of.  According to the FAA:

(a) In any of the following cases the United States court in and for the district wherein the award was made may make an order vacating the award upon the application of any party to the arbitration—

(1)
where the award was procured by corruption, fraud, or undue means;
(2)
where there was evident partiality or corruption in the arbitrators, or either of them;
(3)
where the arbitrators were guilty of misconduct in refusing to postpone the hearing, upon sufficient cause shown, or in refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy; or of any other misbehavior by which the rights of any party have been prejudiced; or
(4)
where the arbitrators exceeded their powers, or so imperfectly executed them that a mutual, final, and definite award upon the subject matter submitted was not made.
 
Again hard to do/prove. But if you can make a convincing case of bias, you can at least challenge it in court and may give you a bit of leverage for settlement.

The Award makes clear the first arbitrator went against JAMS own rules. I am looking into a challenge based on #2 & #4. I realize it is difficult to prove but I do have evidence. 

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On 7/10/2020 at 4:16 PM, Thomas2 said:

It lays to rest I believe the erroneous belief that they can recoup those fees from either JAMS or AAA in consumer arbitration. In this regards, no matter what is the final end point for my particular case, it is good news for consumers.

I'm happy i was wrong in my predictions and that this ended well for you, however, unless someone doesn't mind giving away 3 years of their life, i don't see it as "good news" for any other consumers being sued by Discover. Arbitration rulings don't create any sort of binding precedent. Just because discover lost this one doesn't necessarily preclude them from trying again with someone else tomorrow. If there's one thing we know about them, it's that the cost of pursuing a bad debt is of no consequence to them. They have spent 50x the value of a debt in pursuit of collecting it, and have never given any indication that they will ever back down. 

I'm sure this was covered somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread, but I'm lazy. Did you ever try to negotiate settlement with them at any point? If so, when, and what were the details, if you don't mind sharing?

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15 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:
 
 

I'm happy i was wrong in my predictions and that this ended well for you, however, unless someone doesn't mind giving away 3 years of their life, i don't see it as "good news" for any other consumers being sued by Discover. Arbitration rulings don't create any sort of binding precedent. Just because discover lost this one doesn't necessarily preclude them from trying again with someone else tomorrow. If there's one thing we know about them, it's that the cost of pursuing a bad debt is of no consequence to them. They have spent 50x the value of a debt in pursuit of collecting it, and have never given any indication that they will ever back down. 

I'm sure this was covered somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread, but I'm lazy. Did you ever try to negotiate settlement with them at any point? If so, when, and what were the details, if you don't mind sharing?

It hopefully means JAMS will become more aware of arbitrators who don't understand their CMS and will address it more systemically. Never say never, OC's have been known to back down occasionally.

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4 hours ago, defaultjudgment said:

Never say never, OC's have been known to back down occasionally.

Discover has never been deterred by arbitration. It has been used successfully to negotiate more favorable settlement terms, but they've never walked away from a debt the way JDBs do.

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6 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

I'm happy i was wrong in my predictions and that this ended well for you, however, unless someone doesn't mind giving away 3 years of their life, i don't see it as "good news" for any other consumers being sued by Discover. Arbitration rulings don't create any sort of binding precedent. Just because discover lost this one doesn't necessarily preclude them from trying again with someone else tomorrow. If there's one thing we know about them, it's that the cost of pursuing a bad debt is of no consequence to them. They have spent 50x the value of a debt in pursuit of collecting it, and have never given any indication that they will ever back down. 

I'm sure this was covered somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread, but I'm lazy. Did you ever try to negotiate settlement with them at any point? If so, when, and what were the details, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't disagree. It is good news for me & I do think that JAMS will pay more attention with regards to the CMS as well. 

I made overtures. They were rejected at every turn. 

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2 hours ago, Thomas2 said:

I made overtures. They were rejected at every turn.

Yeah, so this just reinforces my feeling that they will never shy away from arbitration. It actually feels as though they welcome it as an opportunity to show how big their huevos are. 

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2 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

Yeah, so this just reinforces my feeling that they will never shy away from arbitration. It actually feels as though they welcome it as an opportunity to show how big their huevos are. 

They are thoroughly unpleasant to deal with. That's all I will say on that. 

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Roger that.  I really am glad things turned out this way.  I remember the moment I came to the realization that the CMS may not mean what we all had assumed it meant, and it hit me like a ton of bricks.  As unpleasant as this journey has been for you, I appreciate the lessons that it taught the rest of us.

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17 hours ago, defaultjudgment said:

It hopefully means JAMS will become more aware of arbitrators who don't understand their CMS and will address it more systemically.

 

11 hours ago, Thomas2 said:

I do think that JAMS will pay more attention with regards to the CMS as well. 

Even under exactly the same facts, all that some future consumer can point to is the rules and the agreement. No reference can be made to the appeal panel review in your particular case, even if some future consumer was lucky enough to know that it existed.

The rules are not clear enough on their own, so the appeal panel review in your case only helps future consumers if JAMS updates their rules in light of the appeal panel review.  Otherwise, the interpretation of the rules by the appeal panel in your case will stand entirely on its own.  It can't be used or even read by anyone else.  The only way that JAMS (administration) can "tell" any arbitrator what they must do in some future case is via the rules. 

JAMS has no incentive to do this.

Unless JAMS updates their rules, only consumers in California and New Jersey are protected, under statute, from reallocation.  Everyone else might have to do what you did; spend years in arbitration, leading to a result that still can go either way. Many of those future consumers won't even have access to the same type of appeal.

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4 hours ago, kittycat said:

 

Even under exactly the same facts, all that some future consumer can point to is the rules and the agreement. No reference can be made to the appeal panel review in your particular case, even if some future consumer was lucky enough to know that it existed.

The rules are not clear enough on their own, so the appeal panel review in your case only helps future consumers if JAMS updates their rules in light of the appeal panel review.  Otherwise, the interpretation of the rules by the appeal panel in your case will stand entirely on its own.  It can't be used or even read by anyone else.  The only way that JAMS (administration) can "tell" any arbitrator what they must do in some future case is via the rules. 

JAMS has no incentive to do this.

Unless JAMS updates their rules, only consumers in California and New Jersey are protected, under statute, from reallocation.  Everyone else might have to do what you did; spend years in arbitration, leading to a result that still can go either way. Many of those future consumers won't even have access to the same type of appeal.

 

You & several others have argued in this thread that the rules are "unclear". The ruling by the panel states that they are crystal clear. The JAMS CMS applies to all cases & it supersedes anything that might contradict it in the CMA. The consumer is only liable for the $250.00 filing fee. Period. The panel made it very clear that the JAMS CMS does tell arbitrators exactly what to do & that this guy I had violated them. I am sorry but I argued from the start that it was crystal clear, the 11th Circuit said it was crystal clear, & JAMS confirmed it. 

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28 minutes ago, Thomas2 said:
 

You & several others have argued in this thread that the rules are "unclear". The ruling by the panel states that they are crystal clear. The JAMS CMS applies to all cases & it supersedes anything that might contradict it in the CMA. The consumer is only liable for the $250.00 filing fee. Period. The panel made it very clear that the JAMS CMS does tell arbitrators exactly what to do & that this guy I had violated them. I am sorry but I argued from the start that it was crystal clear, the 11th Circuit said it was crystal clear, & JAMS confirmed it. 

The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals?  Where did the 11th Circuit say the rules are clear?

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50 minutes ago, Thomas2 said:
The ruling by the panel states that they are crystal clear. The JAMS CMS applies to all cases & it supersedes anything that might contradict it in the CMA. The consumer is only liable for the $250.00 filing fee. Period. The panel made it very clear that the JAMS CMS does tell arbitrators exactly what to do & that this guy I had violated them.

Does the ruling by the appeal panel change anything for anyone else going forward?

If it does, how does it do so?

It seems what you're saying is that the error made by the first arbitrator in your case was so egregious that any other arbitrator would likely not commit the same error, assuming such arbitrator read and understood the plain language of the CMS.  If this is true, it was also true before the appeal panel in your case made any ruling.

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18 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

Discover has never been deterred by arbitration. It has been used successfully to negotiate more favorable settlement terms, but they've never walked away from a debt the way JDBs do.

Of course it isn't as likely as with JDBs but it has happened.

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11 minutes ago, defaultjudgment said:

Of course it isn't as likely as with JDBs but it has happened.

Not with Discover.  Ever.  This is a Discover thread.  And I very specifically and deliberately said "Discover" in the post of mine that you quoted.

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44 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

Not with Discover.  Ever.  This is a Discover thread.  And I very specifically and deliberately said "Discover" in the post of mine that you quoted.

lol yes with Discover. The world is a big place. I know it has happened.

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51 minutes ago, defaultjudgment said:

lol yes with Discover. The world is a big place. I know it has happened.

Example, please. 

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20 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

Example, please. 

You want me to give you the person's court documents? I get the conventional wisdom is Discover and Amex NEVER walk away but it does happen very rarely depending on the particularities of the case. If you don't believe, don't believe me but I won't go to great lengths to prove it to you.

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52 minutes ago, defaultjudgment said:

If you don't believe, don't believe me but I won't go to great lengths to prove it to you.

I don't believe you. I never said "great lengths". Just something verifiable. Now you're just back pedaling.

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53 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

I don't believe you. I never said "great lengths". Just something verifiable. Now you're just back pedaling.

You don't have to. But it happens.

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