Judge denied MTC and awarded judgement to plantiff.

[BadDebtor]

I just had a court case with Mariner Finance (OC).  I was denied MTC and a judgement was awarded to Mariner in the amount of 2000.  This was York County District. 

 

Before the court date, I had elected to arbitration with AAA to the OC and sent that information to the court house.  AAA opened up a case a week after that.  At court, I presented the judge Mariners arbitration agreement (which I have attached also).   I told the judge that I sent a letter to AAA, Mariner, and the court house asking for arbitration.  I used the sample form here for mtc.  What’s my next step?  Mariner said they would settle for less if I dropped the AAA case (not sure why, since they have no reason to respond to it now). 

I'm confused and wondering if I read the AAA agreement wrong.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

MFnote.pdf

[Clydesmom]

41 minutes ago, BadDebtor said:

What's my next step?

Appeal.  In PA I believe an appeal is what is known as a trial de novo meaning it is a whole new trial not just an appeal of specific issues in the original case.

The one down side is PA may require an appeal bond to do so.  Check your paper work on what is required to appeal.  DO NOT delay you only have 30 days to appeal and then you have no recourse but to pay the judgment or hope they don't levy bank accounts.

[Harry Seaward]

Did the judge give a reason when he denied the motion? 

I also think you should appeal this. There is nothing in the agreement that I can see that would exclude their claims from arbitration. And they agreed to it by paying their (non-refundable) fee, correct? If so, they should also want the case to go to arb.

What is the amount of the debt? Just FYI, if they do follow you into arb, don't expect the outcome there to be any different than if you stay in court. The main leverage you have in your corner is AAA's rules prohibit the arbitrator from reallocating Mariner's arb fees back to you, so whatever they spend in arb, they'll never get that back. You may need to make them aware of this. After you get the MTC granted of course. 

[BadDebtor]

No he didn't give a reason for denying the motion.  He just asked for my story and the plaintiffs.  After that, he asked for closing comments and then he ruled in favor of the plaintiff. 

They did not pay the arbitration fee.  They did not respond to the AAA arbitration at all (last I checked a week ago) and the deadline was Sept. 4th. 

The debt is 1000. 

 

I was looking to appeal now.  I just didn't understand why my MTC to got denied.  I give the judge the Arbitration agreement and I thought for sure, that's all the information he needed to grant the MTC, but he ended up denying it... which really confused me. 

 

[Harry Seaward]

So did he actually say the motion was denied, or did he just ignore it and rule a judgment for the debt in favor of the plaintiff? 

[BadDebtor]

He must have ignored it then.  I thought when he give the judgment was him denying the motion 

[Harry Seaward]

Did you mention it at any point during the hearing? 

[BadDebtor]

I didn’t mention the motion by name.  I said I sent a letter to mariner, the court , and aaa asking for arbitration.  I showed him the case that I had opened up against mariner and the arbitration agreement between mariner and I.  He looked at the case, and arbitration agreement.  

 

I edited my first message since technically I didn’t mention motion to compel to the judge .  I sent the letter mtc (using the sample form here ) to the court house.   At my court case , I mentioned the letters I sent to the court , aaa, and the oc.

[Clydesmom]

32 minutes ago, BadDebtor said:

I said I sent a letter to mariner, the court , and aaa asking for arbitration.

Unfortunately a letter to the court is not the way to address this.  When you filed your answer did you raise arbitration as an affirmative defense?  Did you also deny that the court had jurisdiction because arbitration was the appropriate forum?

[Harry Seaward]

Did Mariner address your MTC at all? Did they make any argument against it? If they didn't, and didn't specifically mention "waiver" or "waived the right to arbitration", it doesn't matter if you claimed arbitration or lack of jurisdiction in your answer. If they didn't raise those issues with the lower court, they can't raise them on appeal. 

[BadDebtor]

When I filed my answer, I did notify them I was intending to file arbitration as my defense.  I did mention that AAA was the correct forum in courts.  

Mariner did not make an argument against it.  Outside of court , they asked why I was filing with AAA and asked for a settlement and I didn’t agree to it.  

Unfortunately, I froze up a bit in court and didn’t push the mtc letter or jurisdiction as much as I would have liked looking back .   

In court, I mentioned that this wasn’t the correct forum and AAA was.  I told them I opened a case and Mariner was aware.   I give the Judge the highlighted arbitration agreement showing him that arbitration should have taken place before going to court.   I also give him the letter from AAA showing them that I filed a  case with them

I hope this doesn’t affect my appeal and I will try to be more prepared and not rely on papers and letters as much .

[Harry Seaward]

Yeah, you're fine. I'd definitely appeal. 

[Clydesmom]

5 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

Did Mariner address your MTC at all? Did they make any argument against it? If they didn't, and didn't specifically mention "waiver" or "waived the right to arbitration", it doesn't matter if you claimed arbitration or lack of jurisdiction in your answer. If they didn't raise those issues with the lower court, they can't raise them on appeal. 

Actually they can rsise those issues because in PA an appeal is a trial de novo. Both sides get to present their case again from the start.

[BadDebtor]

10 hours ago, Clydesmom said:

Actually they can rsise those issues because in PA an appeal is a trial de novo. Both sides get to present their case again from the start.

Since it’s basically a new trial, after I submit my appeal, should I send them another mtc letter ? Or just wait till my day in court ?  And just make sure I mention arbitration as my defense and moving it to the proper forum more ?

[Harry Seaward]

10 hours ago, Clydesmom said:

Both sides get to present their case again from the start.

It's a moot point since OP did lay claim to arb in the answer, and argued the court lacked jurisdiction.

And if it is in fact a trial de novo at appeal, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, since both sides get to start over. 

[Brotherskeeper]

16 hours ago, BadDebtor said:

I edited my first message since technically I didn’t mention motion to compel to the judge .  I sent the letter mtc (using the sample form here ) to the court house.   At my court case , I mentioned the letters I sent to the court , aaa, and the oc.

"MTC" means a motion to compel. A motion to compel private contractual arbitration is a formal request to the court drafted, filed and served according to your court's rules of civil procedure.

21 hours ago, BadDebtor said:

I used the sample form here for mtc

To be clear, you did not actually file a formal written motion, a sample of which is found in @fisthardcheese 's pinned arb thread; you wrote a letter and filed it with the court. Is this correct? What did the letter you submitted to court say?

Compelling and Staying Arbitration in Pennsylvania 

[BadDebtor]

I used the sample letter in fisthardcheese pin.   I altered it and added lines from the arbitration agreement.  After I got the letter to state my intent in court .  I mailed at sample letter asking for them to compel to private arbitration 

[Brotherskeeper]

2 minutes ago, BadDebtor said:

I used the sample letter in fisthardcheese pin.

Was the "letter" titled "DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO COMPEL PRIVATE/CONTRACTUAL ARBITRATION AND TO STAY PROCEEDINGS PENDING ARBITRATION"  and did you have to pay a "motion fee" when you filed it with the court? 

[BadDebtor]

5 minutes ago, Brotherskeeper said:

Was the "letter" titled "DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO COMPEL PRIVATE/CONTRACTUAL ARBITRATION AND TO STAY PROCEEDINGS PENDING ARBITRATION"  and did you have to pay a "motion fee" when you filed it with the court? 

Yes it was titled that and no I didn't have to pay a motion fee.  I'm sure there was somewhere in the process though that I did mess up though since it didn't get mentioned.  How should I prepare differently for the appeal ?  

 

And thank for your link,  I'm going to need to do some reading up and more preparation this time around.  

[Brotherskeeper]

1 minute ago, BadDebtor said:

Yes it was titled that and no I didn't have to pay a motion fee.  I'm sure there was somewhere in the process though that I did mess up though since it didn't get mentioned.

What you're referring to as a "letter" is actually called a motion.  Your state's rules of civil procedure and your particular court's/judge's rules, if they exist, control motions. In my court, you have to schedule a motion hearing, serve a "notice of motion and hearing date" to the plaintiff, and pay a motion fee when you file the motion and motion brief, in order to have a judge rule on the motion. Perhaps you did not follow the required rules/steps in order to have your motion properly before your judge. 

 

9 minutes ago, BadDebtor said:

How should I prepare differently for the appeal ?  

I'm sorry but an appeal is not an area I know anything about. @Harry Seaward has the experience with appeals. 

[Brotherskeeper]

@BadDebtor Are you in small claims (or its equivalent) court?

[Brotherskeeper]

On 9/14/2018 at 1:07 PM, BadDebtor said:

This was York County District. 

https://yorkcountypa.gov/courts-criminal-justice/rules-procedural-information/civil-rules-of-court.html

Civil Cases
Civil cases can be heard by the Magisterial District Courts and the Court of Common Pleas. The jurisdiction of Magisterial District Judges in civil matters includes suits involving as much as $12,000. District Judges also have jurisdiction over matters such as landlord and tenant cases. The Court of Common Pleas hears cases involving more than $12,000. Magisterial District Judge decisions in cases involving smaller amounts are subject to appeal in the Court of Common Pleas.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Brotherskeeper
add info

[BadDebtor]

Yes that’s there it was.  

[Clydesmom]

6 hours ago, BadDebtor said:

Since it’s basically a new trial, after I submit my appeal, should I send them another mtc letter ? Or just wait till my day in court ?

Before you throw good money after bad you need to consider some facets of this case that the others are over looking.  This is NOT a lawsuit by a junk debt buyer.  You are being sued by the original creditor/finance company over a loan NOT a credit card.  They will have ALL the records to prevail without affidavits or live witness under the business records exemption law(s).  A bad case in court with an OC is equally bad in arbitration.  What exactly are you hoping to accomplish in arbitration?  I ask because they have already offered to settle for less if you drop the arbitration.  A settlement is the best you can hope for with an OC  lawsuit.  

[BadDebtor]

I was hoping for a better settlement offer.  The cost of arbitration is more then the loan begin with.