cjtx2

Deceased

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2 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

How do you know? 

From my credit report. Several tradelines by this OC (not all) under responsibility instead of individual, joint, etc. show deceased and under payment status consumer reported as deceased.

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Incidentally, as part of the OCs investigation, i would expect them to reach out to you to verify that you are in fact still alive. If you ignore that contact, you have no right to sue them if they don't correct their entry on your credit reports. Although i suspect your dispute will be all they need to fix their mistake. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

Incidentally, as part of the OCs investigation, i would expect them to reach out to you to verify that you are in fact still alive. If you ignore that contact, you have no right to sue them if they don't correct their entry on your credit reports. 

Thanks! I had not thought of that. So if I include a revocation of permission to call, they have to contact me by mail if they decide to investigate that way, right?

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1 hour ago, Harry Seaward said:

How would you tell the OC not to call you in a dispute that you file with the CRA? 

It's really a moot point anyway because, as i said, they'll know you're not dead when they get the notice of your dispute. 

Before I dispute with the CRAs, I would send the OC a letter of dispute with the stipulation that because they have been extremely abusive in calling me before, I will not authorize for them to call me anymore, that I do not intend to respond to their phone calls and that any further contact must be by mail.

After they receive the revocation of express consent, I will dispute with the CRAs and see if they verify. 

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I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe an OC is bound to recognize a notice that you don't want them to call you anymore. That's certainly a part of the FDCPA, but again,  OCs aren't governed by the FDCPA. It might be addressed in the TCPA, but it's been a long time since i read through that piece of legislation. 

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Yes, OCs can be abusive when they call.  That is one of the many reasons why I used a call blocker back in the day.  (This was so long ago, it was a land line).

Revocation of right to call works better with cell phones than with land lines.  AND, it works better if  it is a robo-call and you can prove it is a robo-call.  

Otherwise, if you don't want to speak to the OC, block their calls.  

I did once have an OC that committed all sorts of nasty offenses on my wife's account when we changed our phone numbers.  In that situation, they did some illegal skip tracing, claiming there were a lot of unusual charges on her account.  When she demanded to know what the charges were, and demanded an investigation, they ignored her.  That really came back to bite them in the posterior when they finally threatened to sue her.  

Of course your situation is different.  They may or may not handle this one properly.  The best advice I can give you is:

1. SAVE EVERYTHING!

2. Make copies of everything you send out, and save the copies.

3. Send all letters CMRRR.  Save the green card.  

4. Save all correspondence from the OC and any collection agencies.  

5. SAVE EVERYTHING!!!!!

 

I hope I am not being too subtle in emphasizing how you need to save everything. 

 

At some point, if the OC does commit a violation, you need all the evidence to nail them.  In my wife's case, saving everything was worth the equivalent of  a few months' salary.  

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On 11/21/2019 at 12:48 PM, Harry Seaward said:

I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe an OC is bound to recognize a notice that you don't want them to call you anymore. That's certainly a part of the FDCPA, but again,  OCs aren't governed by the FDCPA. It might be addressed in the TCPA, but it's been a long time since i read through that piece of legislation. 

True. TCPA has an exception for collection calls. So I cannot control what they do, but can certainly make it clear what will happen when they call: that I will not take their call(s).

So any attempt to contact me after they know that the call(s) will not be answered, will be deceptive attempt(s) to collect a debt / fraudulent attempt(s) to verify information which they know in advance will not be answered. So assuming I must be deceased because I did not answer a call from a random number will not fly and at least make it hard to justify assumptions without hard, official proof.

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On 11/23/2019 at 12:18 AM, cjtx2 said:

So any attempt to contact me after they know that the call(s) will not be answered, will be deceptive attempt(s) to collect a debt / fraudulent attempt(s) to verify information which they know in advance will not be answered.

If the calls are unanswered, they can neither be deceptive or fraudulent.   And, as has been pointed out, the FDCPA does not apply to OCs. 

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On 11/22/2019 at 10:18 PM, cjtx2 said:

make it clear what will happen when they call: that I will not take their call(s).

...

So assuming I must be deceased because I did not answer a call from a random number will not fly

You think they won't realize dead people can't send letters? 

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5 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

You think they won't realize dead people can't send letters? 

There have been several cases where creditors have verified deceased status sfter a dispute. So there is no guarantee that they think the way the person making a bona fide dispute would think. 

I have been reading about this and there are ID theft considerations. So it is not as black and white as it seems.

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25 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

There have been several cases where creditors have verified deceased status sfter a dispute. So there is no guarantee that they think the way the person making a bona fide dispute would think. 

I have been reading about this and there are ID theft considerations. So it is not as black and white as it seems.

When things get weird, anything can happen. 
 

Which is why I recommended earlier that EVERYTHING be well documented and saved.  
 

This could be a mess up by the OC. This may or may not be an honest mistake.  They could verify.  
 

This could be ID theft. 
 

This could be one illegal skip tracing.  As I have mentioned many times in the past, I got one of the most dogged OCs to drop a case with illegal skip tracing they refused to investigate.  
 

We don’t know what is going on.  The OC may handle this correctly, and there may be no violation.  Or, the OC could mess this up and the OP saving all the evidence could blow this up in the OC’s faces. 
 

When an OC did some illegal skip tracing on my wife’s account, we got the OC to walk away and also got a law firm to pay a couple of dimes for their violations.  So don’t assume this is just an innocent thing for which you have no recourse.  Even if it is innocent, they may well be willing to make an extremely favorable settlement to avoid having to explain to a judge or arbitrator why they presumed you dead without any evidence.  

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On 11/23/2019 at 12:40 AM, BV80 said:

If the calls are unanswered, they can neither be deceptive or fraudulent.   And, as has been pointed out, the FDCPA does not apply to OCs. 

I understand the part about the call itself. What about the assumption that because nobody answered a bad contact number, the person must be dead?

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5 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

I understand the part about the call itself. What about the assumption that because nobody answered a bad contact number, the person must be dead?

What do you mean by a bad contact number?  

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13 minutes ago, BackFromTheDebt said:

We don’t know what is going on.  The OC may handle this correctly, and there may be no violation.  Or, the OC could mess this up and the OP saving all the evidence could blow this up in the OC’s faces. 

Thank you for your posts. 

I am documenting everything and covering all bases in anticipation for a worst case scenario.

I need to do some more digging, but one of the credit bureaus considers 2 types of deceased status: overall, which comes from the SSA's master file and another one which comes from data furnishers, which according to the bureau, it's much more common than the other one.

The credit bureau requires a notarized letter to prove that you are alive and then they contact the furnishers to tell them they are wrong. It seems like this is the way they investigate...

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2 minutes ago, BV80 said:

What do you mean by a bad contact number?  

When revoking consent, because they are not bound by FDCPA or TCPA to stop calling, they will be told that the number is not a good contact number because they will not be able to reach me and there is no guarantee that it will even be answered.

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4 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

When revoking consent, because they are not bound by FDCPA or TCPA to stop calling, they will be told that the number is not a good contact number because they will not be able to reach me and there is no guarantee that it will even be answered.

You send a letter revoking consent to call YOU at a particular number.  In that letter, do you bother to inform them that they are mistaken about your status as “deceased”?
 

Why would they assume you’re dead if you don’t answer?   It’s an assumption on your part to think that’s what they would conclude.  How do know they wouldn’t be calling to try to resolve the issue?

 

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2 minutes ago, BV80 said:

You send a letter revoking consent to call YOU at a particular number.  In that letter, do you bother to inform them that they are mistaken about your status as “deceased”?

A dispute letter about the deceased status and a consent revokal at the end.

6 minutes ago, BV80 said:

 

Why would they assume you’re dead if you don’t answer?   It’s an assumption on your part to think that’s what they would conclude.  How do know they wouldn’t be calling to try to resolve the issue?

Harry Seaward suggested above that as part of the OC's investigation they can easily claim that they attempted to call me and that I did not answer, so they fulfilled their duties to investigate my dispute and do not have to correct the error because obviously there is no evidence to support the claim that I am alive. It will also prevent me from suing them for FCRA violations since they attempted "in good faith" to verify the account.

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36 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

What about the assumption that because nobody answered a bad contact number, the person must be dead?

Any assumptions about you being dead were made by the OC, which is what caused them to place the debt with a debt collector that specializes in attempting to collect assets from a dead person's estate. 

There's nothing currently on the books that makes what the CA has done thus far a prima facie violation of the FDCPA. Were you to sue them now, you would bear the full burden of convincing a court that the CAs actions were somehow deceptive, and that deception resulted in harm to you. So far I'm not on board, and it doesn't seem like anyone else here is either.

I think your only shot is with the OC continuing to report you as dead after you send them a dispute letter. 

2 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

Harry Seaward suggested above that as part of the OC's investigation they can easily claim that they attempted to call me and that I did not answer, so they fulfilled their duties to investigate my dispute and do not have to correct the error because obviously there is no evidence to support the claim that I am alive.

I said "as part of their investigation...", meaning there would be several parts, not just them trying to call you once and they close their investigation. There are only two ways this OC has you flagged as deceased. Either a.) someone on their side made a mistake, which would be easy to track down in an investigation without having to involve you, or b.) someone they talked to in trying to reach you told them you were dead, which would also be easy to track down. Option 'b' would require something from you to reverse what they were previously told. They could still use mail if they can't reach you by phone.

Let me ask you something. You launch a dispute that requires interaction with you, and then tell them not to contact you. Do you think a court wouldn't see right through your scheme? 

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21 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

A dispute letter about the deceased status and a consent revokal at the end.

Harry Seaward suggested above that as part of the OC's investigation they can easily claim that they attempted to call me and that I did not answer, so they fulfilled their duties to investigate my dispute and do not have to correct the error because obviously there is no evidence to support the claim that I am alive. It will also prevent me from suing them for FCRA violations since they attempted "in good faith" to verify the account.

Do you understand that in order for them to correct their error, they may need to contact you?  Chances are, however, that it would be by mail.

Right now, you’re trying to create and assume problems before you’ve even taken any steps toward a resolution   

 

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3 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

Let me ask you something. You launch a dispute that requires interaction with you, and then tell them not to contact you. Do you think a court wouldn't see right through your scheme? 

As you mentioned above, their false reporting is either a mistake or hearsay from unofficial sources.

There is no exception in the law to prevent me from asserting my rights not to be contacted over the phone. What can possibly come out of a phone contact? Verify info over the phone for someone I have no way of knowing whether it's legit or not?  If there is ID theft involved or suspected, this would make things even worse.

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2 hours ago, cjtx2 said:

There is no exception in the law to prevent me from asserting my rights not to be contacted over the phone.

And there's nothing saying your creditor has to abide by your wishes. 

2 hours ago, cjtx2 said:

What can possibly come out of a phone contact?

"Hey, we can have this corrected for you today if you can you please fax us a notarized statement of your living status."

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