cjtx2

Deceased

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1 hour ago, Harry Seaward said:

"Hey, we can have this corrected for you today if you can you please fax us a notarized statement of your living status."

That could be sent by mail.

Again, any phone request to send any documents to a non public knowledge fax or address would be suspect ID theft.

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1 minute ago, cjtx2 said:

That could be sent by mail.

Again, any phone request to send any documents to a non public knowledge fax or address would be suspect ID theft.

And you could tell them to send their request by mail.   Again, take the first step before borrowing trouble.   It is up to you to properly dispute with the credit reporting agencies.  
 

 

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1 minute ago, BV80 said:

And you could tell them to send their request by mail.   Again, take the first step before borrowing trouble.   It is up to you to properly dispute with the credit reporting agencies.  
 

 

Thank you! All I want is to make sure I come up with a complete dispute instead of regretting later on that I should have included something else.

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11 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

Sure. I was simply answering your question "what can possibly come out of a phone contact?"

 

Both my wife and I work and have worked in several fields which have VERY strict federal privacy laws, and both of us have been trained on how to deal with federal privacy laws.  I am currently in banking, and I have been trained in personal confidential information handling.

Phone calls are NOT a good way to deal with private information.  I can get on the phone and say "I am Groot".  That does not make me Groot.  Private information is best handled either (a) by mail or (b) using a password.  By mail is best.  

 

True, debt collectors generally do not follow strict privacy practices.  A random CA can call me up and ask for Groot, and when I say "I am Groot", they wind up giving out all sorts of confidential information.  Heck, many years ago I had a debt collector from Citibank scream at me because I said I was NOT Groot, and I didn't know how he could find Groot.  He accused me of lying.  

 

I have always advised people not to deal with debt collectors over the phone, since we laymen can easily say something stupid.  Any bank that would call someone up, and use a statement that the recipient is Groot as proof that the recipient really is Groot, is asking for trouble with federal regulators.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any idea what the laws are regarding a bank declaring you dead.  My advice for the OP to save and document everything, which the OP is wisely following, is the best I can do.  If I were the OP, I would spend the time to look into what the bank is or is not required to do in order to declare one of their customers to be deceased.  Maybe the bank followed the law to the letter, maybe they did not.  I can say, based upon my short experience in the banking industry, that I know of cases in which banks have simply written off part or even all of a debt in order to steer clear of federal regulators.  I was personally involved in a project in which staggering amounts of money were written off.  

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1 hour ago, BackFromTheDebt said:

Phone calls are NOT a good way to deal with private information.

Nonsense. There is a level of dialogue that can take place on a telephone to where each side can be certain that the person they are speaking to is who they say they are.

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On 11/24/2019 at 3:18 PM, BackFromTheDebt said:

When things get weird, anything can happen. 
 

Which is why I recommended earlier that EVERYTHING be well documented and saved.  
 

This could be a mess up by the OC. This may or may not be an honest mistake.  They could verify.  
 

This could be ID theft. 
 

This could be one illegal skip tracing.  As I have mentioned many times in the past, I got one of the most dogged OCs to drop a case with illegal skip tracing they refused to investigate.  
 

We don’t know what is going on.  The OC may handle this correctly, and there may be no violation.  Or, the OC could mess this up and the OP saving all the evidence could blow this up in the OC’s faces. 
 

When an OC did some illegal skip tracing on my wife’s account, we got the OC to walk away and also got a law firm to pay a couple of dimes for their violations.  So don’t assume this is just an innocent thing for which you have no recourse.  Even if it is innocent, they may well be willing to make an extremely favorable settlement to avoid having to explain to a judge or arbitrator why they presumed you dead without any evidence.  

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but could you explain what is meant by "illegal skip tracing?"

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5 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

Nonsense. There is a level of dialogue that can take place on a telephone to where each side can be certain that the person they are speaking to is who they say they are.

Which is why I mentioned passwords.  I need to give a password for my accounts when dealing with banks, etc. to show I am authorized to get certain information.  But, that is not sufficient to prove that I am who I say I am.  There are many scams which prey upon grandparents, for example, in which the caller pretends to be the grandchild calling from jail.  The scam artists are quite good. I know of a case in which one of the most brilliant attorneys in Long Island was scammed.  
 

Back when I was a professor, one time I was talking to a student who called from home, two counties away.  He asked for his grades.  My interpretation of federal privacy laws were I could not give him the information, because authorization had to either be in person or in writing.  Fortunately I made the students come up with passwords at the beginning of the semester.  Legally, I could give out the grades corresponding to they password.  

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2 hours ago, nobk4me said:

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but could you explain what is meant by "illegal skip tracing?"

Braking the law in order to find a debtor who seems to have flown the coop.  
 

At one point, I had to change my phone number because the phone system was attached to a water tower that burned down. To get a new phone ASAP I needed a new number.  Almost all the debt collectors were smart enough to call 411 to get my new number.  One OC was not.  As a ruse, they sent a letter to my wife saying her account was suspended because of a high volume of unusual and large charges.  She had only used the account once, for a balance transfer.  The letter was designed to shock her into contacting the OC and asking about the charges.  That was illegal under state and federal laws.  
 

What we did:  She sent a letter CMRRR demanding an explanation, disputing the entire debt, and demanding an investigation of all charges.  The letter included what federal statutes required them to investigate.  
 

Instead of answering my wife’s letter, the OC sent the account to a CA.  Over the next few years, my wife sent letters to each CA refusing to pay the debt until an investigation came through. 
 

Eventually it went to a law firm.  At that point my wife filed a claim in JAMS for fraud, identity theft, etc.  I was able to represent her in JAMS.  Their lawyer was not happy with his client after discovery.  I cannot tell what the settlement was. 

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I should add — there is at least a small probability that the OC declared the OP dead as a truly perverse form of skip tracing.  As in, prove you are alive by giving us all the contact information, so we can sic our collectors on you.  Doing so would be illegal.  If this actually happened, or if the OC could not show any valid reason why they declared the OP dead, the bank could get into trouble, and may very well be willing to walk away to get the OP to drop any claims against the bank. 
 

If I were the OP, I would demand the bank show good reason why they declared him deceased.  

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1 hour ago, BackFromTheDebt said:

There are many scams which prey upon grandparents, for example, in which the caller pretends to be the grandchild calling from jail.

OP can be pretty sure it's a legit phone call when the creditor says "I'm calling about the dispute you opened on xx date for account number xxxxxxxx." At that point they can volley some additional questions to eliminate any doubt.

56 minutes ago, BackFromTheDebt said:

...so we can sic our collectors on you.

They already did this so that line logic doesn't really make sense. 

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23 hours ago, Harry Seaward said:

OP can be pretty sure it's a legit phone call when the creditor says "I'm calling about the dispute you opened on xx date for account number xxxxxxxx." At that point they can volley some additional questions to eliminate any doubt.

Can they start talking about details of the account without asking me the classic 20 questions to identify myself, confirm personal info, etc.?

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I've never been asked more than my name, SSN, pin or whatever secret question and possibly my mailing address or last transaction amount if i don't know my secret question. The last year or so I've occasionally had them send a code to my phone to give back to them. And this is also the case with accounts for which I'm not the legal owner but have POA. 

honestly, they only have so many pieces of your info so the number of questions is pretty limited. 

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Here is one of the dunning letters.

 

Quote

 

dcm

services

7601 Penn Ave. S, Suite A600

Minneapolis, Minnesota 55423-5004

Telephone: 612-243-8710

Fax: 877-326-8784

Toll free 866-285-2387

 

xxxx, xx, 2019

 

The Estate of CJTX2

address

 

Dear Sir or Madam:

We have learned that CJTX2 has passed away. We are sorry for your loss, and we understand this is a difficult time for you.

We are seeking to identify and locate the person who has the authority to pay any outstanding bills out of CJTX2' Estate.

If you know the identity of this person, please provide it in one of the following ways:

- Visit https://servicelink.dcmservices.com. When prompted,  please enter:

File number: XXXXX

PIN number: XXXX

- Fill out the form located on the back of this letter and return it in the enclosed postage paid envelope.

- Call our toll free number at 1-866-285-2387 to speak with one of our representatives.

Cordially,

DCM Services, LLC

 

 

 

I do not see: a validation notice nor a disclosure that this is a debt collector and that any information obtained may be used for that purpose.

Are they required to provide it? The smart thing would be to include it just in case.

1692d(d) defines consumer "for the purposes of this section" so that it includes the executor or administrator and this is in the context of communications in connection with debt collection.

On the other hand, if this was just an attempt to acquire location information under 1692 b, they were not supposed to state that "such consumer owes any debt".

Are there any FDCPA violations in this letter?

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I have an idea. Since you have the letter, why don't you take it to a consumer attorney in Texas who specializes in the FDCPA and ask them if you have a case rather than some random strangers on the internet. This way you can be assured of your answer.

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12 hours ago, cjtx2 said:

We are seeking to identify and locate the person who has the authority to pay any outstanding bills out of CJTX2' Estate.

If you know the identity of this person,

The FDCPA’s definition of “consumer” is “any natural person obligated or allegedly obligated to pay any debt.”  The language in the letter does not suggest the recipient is “obligated or allegedly obligated” to pay debts.  

In regard to seeking location information, they are under the belief that you are dead, so why would they be seeking your location?  

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3 hours ago, BV80 said:

The FDCPA’s definition of “consumer” is “any natural person obligated or allegedly obligated to pay any debt.”  The language in the letter does not suggest the recipient is “obligated or allegedly obligated” to pay debts.  

The OPs issue is that the letter is misleading in claiming that the OP is dead and contains none of the information required for a debt collection letter based on the FDCPA. My advice is still the same, take it to a consumer attorney and let them decide if there is a case.

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9 hours ago, BV80 said:

The FDCPA’s definition of “consumer” is “any natural person obligated or allegedly obligated to pay any debt.”  The language in the letter does not suggest the recipient is “obligated or allegedly obligated” to pay debts.  

 

This is true for the general definition of consumer. But if you look into 1692c(d):

Quote

(d) “Consumer” defined
For the purpose of this section, the term "consumer" includes the consumer's spouse, parent (if the consumer is a minor), guardian, executor, or administrator.

the act covers spouses, executors, etc. when it comes to communications in connection with debt collection.

9 hours ago, BV80 said:

In regard to seeking location information, they are under the belief that you are dead, so why would they be seeking your location?  

They are seeking location info for the executor of my estate, which is treated as a consumer according to the above definition, and their attempt to obtain location info is allowed under 1692c(b):

Quote

(b) Communication with third parties
Except as provided in section 1692b of this title, without the prior consent of the consumer given directly to the debt collector, or the express permission of a court of competent jurisdiction, or as reasonably necessary to effectuate a postjudgment judicial remedy, a debt collector may not communicate, in connection with the collection of any debt, with any person other than the consumer, his attorney, a consumer reporting agency if otherwise permitted by law, the creditor, the attorney of the creditor, or the attorney of the debt collector.

 

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30 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

This is true for the general definition of consumer. But if you look into 1692c(d):

the act covers spouses, executors, etc. when it comes to communications in connection with debt collection.

They are seeking location info for the executor of my estate, which is treated as a consumer according to the above definition, and their attempt to obtain location info is allowed under 1692c(b):

 

It doesn’t matter who the definition includes.  It must also include that the person is obligated to pay the debt.  Where did the letter allege the recipient is obligated to pay the debt?

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1 hour ago, BV80 said:

It doesn’t matter who the definition includes.  It must also include that the person is obligated to pay the debt.  Where did the letter allege the recipient is obligated to pay the debt?

Ok, so we agree the definition includes the executor or administrator of an estate and it does matter.

They make a misleading statement to create the impression that whoever receives the letter is responsible/obligated to pay my debts. Specifically: " the person who has the authority to pay any outstanding bills out of CJTX2' Estate."

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12 hours ago, WhoCares1000 said:

I have an idea. Since you have the letter, why don't you take it to a consumer attorney in Texas who specializes in the FDCPA and ask them if you have a case rather than some random strangers on the internet. This way you can be assured of your answer.

Thanks. I just want to be well informed by the time I meet a consumer lawyer.

I know it may take several opinions, but I had a terrible experience some time ago because I had not done my research. I went to a NACA lawyer and without knowing anything about my situation, he scolded me for not paying my debt and getting myself in a bad situation. He said I did not have a case just because he did not know how to handle it. I did it myself and won.

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18 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

They make a misleading statement to create the impression that whoever receives the letter is responsible/obligated to pay my debts. Specifically: " the person who has the authority to pay any outstanding bills out of CJTX2' Estate.”

No, they did not.  You took that phrase out of context.  They stated, “We are seeking to identify and locate the person who has the authority to pay any outstanding bills out of CJTX2' Estate.  If you know the identity of this person, please provide it in one of the following ways:“

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7 minutes ago, BV80 said:

No, they did not.  You took that phrase out of context.  They stated, “We are seeking to identify and locate the person who has the authority to pay any outstanding bills out of CJTX2' Estate.  If you know the identity of this person, please provide it in one of the following ways:“

So they are not implying that the executor is obligated to pay the debt? It works real well since a lot of people fall for the guilt trip and feel obligated to pay the deceased's debts.

Most dunning letters do not explicitly say you must pay or that you are obligated to pay... They just state there is a debt, the amount and how to pay it.

Is there a requirement that they must include a statement to that effect?

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24 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

So they are not implying that the executor is obligated to pay the debt? It works real well since a lot of people fall for the guilt trip and feel obligated to pay the deceased's debts.

No, it’s not making that implication.  So what if they feel guilty?  It’s what is said that matters.  
 

25 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

Most dunning letters do not explicitly say you must pay or that you are obligated to pay... They just state there is a debt, the amount and how to pay it.

Yes, they do, especially when they include payment options.  They state “YOU can pay...” or something similar.  

 

27 minutes ago, cjtx2 said:

Is there a requirement that they must include a statement to that effect?

Include what statement?

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2 minutes ago, BV80 said:

No, it’s not making that implication.  So what if they feel guilty?  It’s what is said that matters.  

Actually, a large portion of FDCPA is about deceitful statements and misrepresentations.

4 minutes ago, BV80 said:

Yes, they do, especially when they include payment options.  They state “YOU can pay...” or something similar.  

Ok, so again we agree they do not say "you are obligated to pay", since "It’s what is said that matters".

8 minutes ago, BV80 said:

Include what statement?

"consumer is obligated to pay" or something to that effect.

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