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Covid-19 & Mutual Walkaway - Opinion

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On 4/20/2020 at 4:27 PM, Harry Seaward said:

...less than 2% of infected people develop symptoms. 

This, combined with the fact that the overwhelming majority of problem cases are confined to a known demographic (age, certain chronic health issues) makes the continued destruction of the economy a travesty. People in the non-risk group will die at the same rate as those who contract an infection after cutting their finger on a winning lottery ticket.

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1 hour ago, Goody_Ouchless said:

People in the non-risk group will die at the same rate as those who contract an infection after cutting their finger on a winning lottery ticket.

I have to keep believing that the majority of people are capable of critical thought and will eventually say enough is enough. My brain can't tolerate the alternative.

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2 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

My brain can't tolerate the alternative.

...yet they cancelled the Spelling Bee - probably the safest possible event - I'll call it a sport - and one which would be such a sign of hope. If I had an NFL team I'd trade away every draft pick on Thursday - if Bee is too dangerous, there certainly isn't going to be football this season.

 

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It's a valid point, and all I can offer is that there are a lot less dollars at stake with cancelling the spelling bee vs. entire sports seasons.

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All I know is that the Government got everyone to go along with shutting everything down by saying we must "flatten the curve" and prevent overwhelming the health system.  Yet, after a couple weeks of declining numbers now, governments are extending or worsening all of the martial law.  Add to that, the measures taken by businesses and governments are illogical and make spreading a disease even worse, like shortening grocery store hours so that now everyone must cram into the store at the same time during the shorter day rather than expanding hours and having a sign up for a 30 minute slot during the day where you can come in with a limited number of other people to shop.  Instead, everything is being done in a backwards manor fluffed up with keywords like "heroes" and "do your part" and "in this together" as you march in lock step to your demise (financial or otherwise).

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It's disgusting.  We had an economy that worked, not perfectly, but it functioned.  Now millions have been thrown into instant poverty.  It's like the old Soviet Union, where people stood in lines to get into stores, and when they finally got in half the shelves were empty.  What is really obscene is hungry folks are lining up at food banks while farmers are dumping milk and destroying crops and livestock.  All this destruction to "stop" a virus that will not kill young healthy people, who are suffering the most from the government edicts.

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45 minutes ago, nobk4me said:

Now millions have been thrown into instant poverty.

This is mostly reversible, but citizens and business owners have to wake the 'f' up and act now. The longer this goes on, the less power we have. 

It's akin to the "temporary" tax that gets put on the books to build a stadium, and all the hollow promises to reverse the tax once the stadium is built. The reality is people get conformable with the tax and the government finds some other use for the revenue, so the tax never goes away. We cannot let ourselves become comfortable with seeing everyone walk around with face masks, and 'one way' decals on the floor of Walmart to solve a problem that never existed. 

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41 minutes ago, Harry Seaward said:

This is mostly reversible, but citizens and business owners have to wake the 'f' up and act now. The longer this goes on, the less power we have. 

It's akin to the "temporary" tax that gets put on the books to build a stadium, and all the hollow promises to reverse the tax once the stadium is built. The reality is people get conformable with the tax and the government finds some other use for the revenue, so the tax never goes away. We cannot let ourselves become comfortable with seeing everyone walk around with face masks, and 'one way' decals on the floor of Walmart to solve a problem that never existed. 

I agree.  I wish people would wake up and fight this.  There are some protests starting.  But most people are too compliant.  Too scared by the propaganda into believing Covid will kill everyone.  Or too afraid of the cops to defy these orders.  The media is parroting the gov party line without question.  Those who are critical are being deplatformed as purveyors of fake news.   I wish I could be hopeful . . . but I'm not seeing hope.

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It's not OK to take something seriously that doesn't exist. The virus exists, but the numbers don't, and the numbers are what's got everyone's panties in a bunch. 

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For the references in this discussion to "a problem that never existed" and "the numbers don't [exist]", what problem and numbers are being referred to? 

Is this claim of non-existence being made in a universal global sense, or in some regional and/or local sense?

Nearly any attempt at worthwhile prevention will often necessarily be an antecedent condition to the existence of the situation for which an attempt at prevention is being made.

Post hoc, critics will say that there was never any problem, discounting the possibility that any problem had been averted or mitigated.

Any action taken quickly enough to actually have an effect will be said to have clearly been unnecessary. See the Prevention paradox.

On the other side, if insufficient preventative action was taken, critics will complain post hoc that some present horrible circumstances could have been avoided.

The policy decisions being made here are objectively complex. The data is fast moving. The effects of these decisions will cause reverberating externalities  Errors are virtually guaranteed. Even botching it all is more likely than not.

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The virus is real. But I suspect the risks are being exaggerated.  This isn't the new bubonic plague.  Yes, there are vulnerable populations.  So isolating them would be the logical course to take.  Instead entire economies are being destroyed with these unprecedented lockdowns. 

Worldwide about 1.5 million people die of TB every year.  But we don't shut down the economy and make people hide in their houses because they might get TB. 

It makes me wonder if there is another agenda here.  For some contrarian views I would recommend lewrockwell.com

 

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3 minutes ago, nobk4me said:

It makes me wonder if there is another agenda here.

Doctors and nurses became the subject of Hero Worship - same as army people after a terrorist attack. Front line heath care workers want the world shut down because they can get sick and die from Covid, whereas the risk to themselves isn't terribly high when treating the victims of a car accident, for example. One of many places where our response was botched was by not pushing back and saying "if you don't want to be a Doctor in a pandemic, then become a dentist, or a go stock shelves." I'work in health care and try to have these discussions - it's not easy - I've been called a "stupid, selfish ostrich with my head in the sand." Fair enough, but I'm doing the Happy Dance that restaurants here are opening on Monday!

 

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Re the hero worship of docs: this is being exploited by the gov.  Here in Ohio there is a daily press briefing by the governor and the health director.  The health director wears a white doctor's coat.  While she is an MD, her job in state government does not involve treating patients.  It is an administrative position.  The white coat is a theater prop, to reinforce her authority.

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2 hours ago, kittycat said:

For the references in this discussion to "a problem that never existed" and "the numbers don't [exist]", what problem and numbers are being referred to?

The problem that never existed is a coronavirus with a mortality rate of 2-4%.  The numbers that don't exist are those numbers.

2 hours ago, kittycat said:

Any action taken quickly enough to actually have an effect will be said to have clearly been unnecessary. See the Prevention paradox.

Except that we have Sweden as a model of doing essentially nothing, and the per capita numbers there are similar to those here in the US.  The most likely reason is due to the fact that the entire planet had already been exposed to the virus by the end of November so whatever measures that were taken 3+ months later had little effect.

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21 hours ago, Goody_Ouchless said:

Doctors and nurses became the subject of Hero Worship - same as army people after a terrorist attack. Front line heath care workers want the world shut down because they can get sick and die from Covid, whereas the risk to themselves isn't terribly high when treating the victims of a car accident, for example. One of many places where our response was botched was by not pushing back and saying "if you don't want to be a Doctor in a pandemic, then become a dentist, or a go stock shelves." I'work in health care and try to have these discussions - it's not easy - I've been called a "stupid, selfish ostrich with my head in the sand." Fair enough, but I'm doing the Happy Dance that restaurants here are opening on Monday!

 

I don't get why anyone who is at all worried about germs would choose a career in health care. The car accident victim could be infected with HIV, Hep C, or who knows what.  And the ER docs are drenched in their blood.

I think they are the ones being selfish, insisting that everyone else suffer because they suddenly realize they could catch a fatal disease.  When it should have been obvious up front that this risk goes with the territory of working in the medical field.

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4 hours ago, nobk4me said:

I don't get why anyone who is at all worried about germs would choose a career in health care. The car accident victim could be infected with HIV, Hep C, or who knows what.  And the ER docs are drenched in their blood.

I think they are the ones being selfish, insisting that everyone else suffer because they suddenly realize they could catch a fatal disease.  When it should have been obvious up front that this risk goes with the territory of working in the medical field.

It isn't just healthcare.  The problem is that we have two generations raised with rubber mulch on playgrounds made of round plastic edges, bicycle helmets, car seats, and safety safety safety.  They have been conditioned to believe that if you just do enough nothing bad will ever happen.  They sue because "what happened to me shouldn't happen to anyone else" never mind that winning your lawsuit doesn't mean no one else will ever be bit by a dog.  They have been scared into submission since birth.  Don't eat that you will get sick.  Don't touch anything you might get sick.  Don't breathe near a door you might get sick.

I was trained by a combat medic who survived Vietnam.  He trained us on how to survive in the worst circumstances when you might not know when or if you would ever get more supplies to treat people.  The health care workers on videos whining and crying they don't have enough PPE are snowflakes.  Is it ideal to have to wear you one mask for a whole shift?  NO it isn't but if it means that 5 of your patients do not die because you take care of them then you do it.  The entire globe has a shortage right now fighting this virus why is YOUR situation more important than any other health care provider?  It isn't.   Unfortunately they have been raised to believe they are "special" and deserve to have all their wants and needs catered to without question.

It is true on any given day we could be exposed to HIV, Hep A/B/C, MRSA, Covid-19 or any number of contagious and potentially deadly things.  NO employer can guarantee your safety without fail that nothing bad will ever happen to you on the job.  The Subway worker could cut a finger on the slicer or knife.  The janitor could slip mopping the floor. The nurse could be exposed to Covid-19. EVERY job on this planet has risks.  You do what you can to minimize them but there is NEVER a guarantee.  The snowflakes will argue:  the Subway worker shouldn't have to cut sandwiches, The janitor should be given special safety shoes and a dry mop.  The nurse should have all her own endless supply of PPE even if her co-workers suffer for it.  It just doesn't work that way.

We are already seeing the fall out with the snowflakes now demanding that restaurants not open unless workers have the "necessary PPE" or we should not have to come back.  The only change I openly endorse is turning casinos non-smoking.  There are multiple benefits in that change.  We will never return to what we had before because the media and the government has both fueled and supported the fear and anxiety.  That combined with a spoiled entitled public and it is a recipe for disaster.

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2 hours ago, Clydesmom said:

the snowflakes now demanding that restaurants not open unless workers have the "necessary PPE" or we should not have to come back.

It's more diabolical than that. With unemployment and stimulus money,  people are getting paid 2x-3x more to sit at home than they were working their crappy part time jobs. Then for people that have good jobs, the Child Care Relief act allows them to stay at home while their employer is required to keep paying them. People's laziness is being incentivized, and they are going to do and say everything they can to keep this gravy train running as long as absolutely possible. 

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