Cost Bill - Prevailing Party Fees

[HueyPilot]

I previously petitioned the court with a motion for reimbursement of expenses by means of a cost bill to the Court and attorney for a case by Midland Funding v. self. This case was dismissed by the plaintiff without prejudice after plaintiff had prevailed in Court appointed arbitration and I filed for Trial de Novo. Because of the large amount of documents transacted and the investment in time by the representing attorney, Midland withdrew the case most likely because I had used up all their advance. The cost of a Trial Court would be too expensive with plaintiff having to fly witnesses in, court time and man-hours actually spent responding and re-doing all the filings, motions, fees and paperwork. 

Midlands objection and rebuttal was that they had prevailed in arbitration so prevailing party fees we not applicable. I countered with a number of objections, some caselaw and a cost bill for actual expenses. I did not get a response, although filed the motion and had a documented pre-trial conference, from the court nor a signature on my order by the judge. My bill for cost and filings was a little less than 1300.00 to fight this case. No payment made to date.

What would be the best suggestion and scenario to recoup these expenses. What could I have done more effectively?

[BV80]

1 hour ago, HueyPilot said:

I previously petitioned the court with a motion for reimbursement of expenses by means of a cost bill to the Court and attorney for a case by Midland Funding v. self. This case was dismissed by the plaintiff without prejudice after plaintiff had prevailed in Court appointed arbitration and I filed for Trial de Novo. Because of the large amount of documents transacted and the investment in time by the representing attorney, Midland withdrew the case most likely because I had used up all their advance. The cost of a Trial Court would be too expensive with plaintiff having to fly witnesses in, court time and man-hours actually spent responding and re-doing all the filings, motions, fees and paperwork. 

Midlands objection and rebuttal was that they had prevailed in arbitration so prevailing party fees we not applicable. I countered with a number of objections, some caselaw and a cost bill for actual expenses. I did not get a response, although filed the motion and had a documented pre-trial conference, from the court nor a signature on my order by the judge. My bill for cost and filings was a little less than 1300.00 to fight this case. No payment made to date.

What would be the best suggestion and scenario to recoup these expenses. What could I have done more effectively?

We need more information.

What did the arbitrator rule?

Which rule allows for a trial de novo after a plaintiff dismisses its lawsuit?

Which rule allows a self-represented litigant to recover court costs?

What case law did you use to support your motion?

[Bulldoger]

1 hour ago, HueyPilot said:

This case was dismissed by the plaintiff without prejudice after plaintiff had prevailed in Court appointed arbitration and I filed for Trial de Novo.

Plaintiff (filed case in what court small claims or district) They Won Court appointed arbitration (not contractual AAA or JAMS)and you appeal decision for a  Trial de Novo in a higher court? Correct. 

So you are asking the court that prevailing party pay losing party fees. 

[HueyPilot]

Plaintiff won their case in Court Mandated Arbitration. (Not AAA or AMS) Oregon has mandatory arbitration for civil matters. (Kangaroo Court & automatic loss for defendant)

Defendant filed for do over in Regular Trial Court. Trial de Novo.  

Plaintiff did not want to forgo the expense of all the Court Time, preparation man hours or expense of flying in actual witnesses so they withdrew the case and the trial court dismissed with prejudice. 

Court considers this frivolous and if they didn't want to continue the suit then they shouldn't have initiated it in the first place. Their unnecessary action justifies the defendant to get his expenses reimbursed. (No attorney fees involved)

As a defendant I won against Midland and was happy to to so. I filed a cost bill with the court against Midland but didn't get paid. It is my right under Orgon rules to get my expenses reimbursed under these conditions. I didn't receive payment. Was looking for a better method of working with the court to offset my missing payment. 

 

So to answer your question more specifically: I lost in arbitration I prevailed in trial court. I wanted my money back and filed to do so. 

[Bulldoger]

Did you get a judgement you can levy MCM bank account with? If so did you every make a payment to MCM via a check? Is so you can get copy of cancelled check will have MCM bank info on back.  If national bank you can levy a local branch with a writ from judge. 

[HueyPilot]

This is Civil Court and Not Small Claims!

I got a dismissal and the attorney for JDB retracted the law suit. (Like it never happened) Any levies or payments or disbursements would/should be transacted through MCM's attorney. A defendant should NEVER! NEVER! make any payment to Midland Funding unless a favorable settlement is agreed on. Forget bank levy on Midlands bank.

At the time the whole strategy for fighting Midland was to timely and accurately file paperwork and respond to every aspect of the plaintiffs lawsuit. Make the JDB attorney spend as many man-hours as possible working for his money doing paperwork and answering motions and communications. Then go to court appointed mandatory Oregon Arbitration and spend as many hours as possible in arbitration (six hours in my case) then automatically loose the arbitration. So at this point over 300 pages of documents, several hours of telephone time, six hours in arbitration and the automatic win for the plaintiff. (kangaroo court - It is possible to win but doubtful) Then the next critical step was applying for trial in a real court (Civil Court Trial de Novo) with a real judge, not an appointed arbitrator which is authorized in Oregon, similar to an appeal. Application for Trial de Novo - do over, was enough of an additional expense for the plaintiff that the JDB, Midland Funding, choose to retract the suit and file for dismissal with the court. Its a matter of economics 10,000 - 50,000 plaintiff expenditure spent to capture 8000 is not a good business decision. Not only that the pro se defendant might win. 

[Bulldoger]

there is only one way to recouped your $1300.00 that is to sue plaintiff in case.  You lost arbitration they got an award which you stopped it from being turned into judgement.  Now you want $1300 you need a rule, law, something the shows court that because they dismissed case (like you said it never happen). Pending some law, case law, I don't see where you can get any money from MCM. In a way you got $6,700 from them (as they are not pursuing the debt but it can still be sold) .  The American rule is everyone bears their own cost in civil court. I don't know if Oregon is different.  I don't see where they would have a law that loser gets paid by winner if winner quits. 

[HueyPilot]

Redacted Cost Bill Filed.pdfRedacted Cost Bill Filed.pdfRedacted Cost Bill Filed.pdfLost at Court Annexed Arbitration won at appeal in trial court. Prevailing party is allowed expenses in Oregon.

ORCP 54A
A(3) Costs and disbursements. When an action is dismissed under this section, the judgment may include any costs and disbursements, including attorney fees, provided by contract, statute, or rule. Unless the circumstances indicate otherwise, the dismissed party shall be considered the prevailing party.

ORS 20.190 Prevailing party fees 

(2)In lieu of the prevailing party fee provided for in subsection (1) of this section, in any civil action or proceeding in which recovery of money or damages is sought, a prevailing party who has a right to recover costs and disbursements also has a right to recover, as a part of the costs and disbursements, the following additional amounts:
(a)In a circuit court:
   (A)When judgment is given without trial of an issue of law or fact, $345; or
   (B)When judgment is given after trial of an issue of law or fact, $640.

ORCP 68 provides for recovery of costs and disbursements by the prevailing party at trial.  

A(2) Costs and disbursements. “Costs and disbursements” are reasonable and necessary expenses incurred in the prosecution or defense of an action, other than for legal services, and include the fees of officers and witnesses; the expense of publication of summonses or notices, and the postage where the same are served by mail; any fee charged by the Department of Transportation for providing address information concerning a party served with summons pursuant to Rule 7 D(4)(a)(ii);

 

 

 

[BV80]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:26 PM, HueyPilot said:

10,000 - 50,000 plaintiff expenditure

Where do you get that amount?

[Clydesmom]

2 minutes ago, BV80 said:

Where do you get that amount?

His imagination.  Most of his posts reek of old Debtorboards misinformation on how much it will cost a creditor to pursue a case.  Most of it is at best outdated and worst flat out wrong.

[Clydesmom]

On 9/20/2021 at 11:29 AM, Bulldoger said:

there is only one way to recouped your $1300.00 that is to sue plaintiff in case.  You lost arbitration they got an award which you stopped it from being turned into judgement.  Now you want $1300 you need a rule, law, something the shows court that because they dismissed case (like you said it never happen). Pending some law, case law, I don't see where you can get any money from MCM. In a way you got $6,700 from them (as they are not pursuing the debt but it can still be sold) .  The American rule is everyone bears their own cost in civil court. I don't know if Oregon is different.  I don't see where they would have a law that loser gets paid by winner if winner quits. 

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He lost the case.  That Midland backed down at the thought of appeal doesn't mean he won on the merits and gets costs.  Anyone else would be celebrating pushing them to back down and moving on.  My prediction is if @HueyPilotpursues this they will come back full force pursuing the entire debt.  Sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lie.

[Bulldoger]

2 hours ago, HueyPilot said:

ORCP 54A
A(3) Costs and disbursements. When an action is dismissed under this section, the judgment may include any costs and disbursements, including attorney fees, provided by contract, statute, or rule. Unless the circumstances indicate otherwise, the dismissed party shall be considered the prevailing party.

the judgment may include any costs and disbursements, including attorney fees, provided by contract, statute, or rule.

 

A Voluntary dismissal; effect thereof.

          A(1) By plaintiff; by stipulation. Subject to the provisions of Rule 32 D and of any statute of this state, a plaintiff may dismiss an action in its entirety or as to one or more defendants without order of court by filing a notice of dismissal with the court and serving the notice on all other parties not in default not less than 5 days prior to the day of trial if no counterclaim has been pleaded, or by filing a stipulation of dismissal signed by all adverse parties who have appeared in the action. Unless otherwise stated in the notice of dismissal or stipulation, the dismissal is without prejudice, except that a notice of dismissal operates as an adjudication upon the merits when filed by a plaintiff who has once dismissed in any court of the United States or of any state an action against the same parties on or including the same claim unless the court directs that the dismissal shall be without prejudice. Upon notice of dismissal or stipulation under this subsection, a party shall submit a form of judgment and the court shall enter a judgment of dismissal.

What does the judgement of dismissal say? 

[HueyPilot]

@Clydesmomis correct. I took the win and backed off. However it did cost D Gordan extra time in attorney fees to respond to my motion against MCM for costs. This is an older case and the SOL has tolled. It's of no further concern. I'm tooling up for another pending suit. 

The quote on attorney costs came for a local long term employment attorney whom claimed at the time that he would represent me and in his letter to the opposing counsel he estimated it would cost the opposing counsel in the neighborhood of 80,000 to defend a case they could not win in Trial Court. The JDB attorney had only been practicing for less than one year according to his bar registration number. My guy had well over 25 years of successful practice and had knocked many cases out of the park. If this is no longer a viable technique then so be it a least the bluff worked one time.  

I am reaching for methodology and maybe caselaw to recover costs as a future prevailing party and we may have got off the point. 

 

As to @Bulldoger inquiry for content of judgment of dismissal, its a half page of I raise the white flag. In the preconference meeting attorney for the plaintiff said "file your motion and order with points he would not oppose" and I did along with my cost bill. 

[HueyPilot]

Where do you get that amount?

On 9/21/2021 at 3:56 PM, BV80 said:

Where do you get that amount?

I was basing that on an estimate from various charts. Oregon attorneys are charging 300 - 500 dollars an hour for representing litigation on a civil case. In addition a flat fee or 3000 for a day in court. When you add in the CMC's, the discovery, doc preparation and consultation it adds up and that is if you don't win. When you go to appeal to a higher court the escalated cost of litigation and procedures are even more. There may even be investigative costs though doubtful. It's very expensive to improve your position in an Oregon Court. Oregon has its own ADR and it's very hard to get awarded JAMS or AAA arbitration so add that cost in as well. Then you can ad the costs to go to Trial de Novo.   https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/94-970.html

Some Scary reading: 

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/94-970.html#_Toc243980854

 

[HueyPilot]

"His imagination.  Most of his posts reek of old Debtorboards (sp) misinformation on how much it will cost a creditor to pursue a case.  Most of it is at best outdated and worst flat out wrong".

~~~~~~

@Clydesmom It's always good to have effective criticism it makes us all better at what we do.  Effective criticism is useful for the following two reasons:

(1) New ideas and perspectives will be discovered, and

(2) Argument logic is tested, possibly revealing shortcomings

Keep up the good work even as a pundit your input is always welcome.

[Clydesmom]

10 minutes ago, HueyPilot said:

I was basing that on an estimate from various charts. Oregon attorneys are charging 300 - 500 dollars an hour for representing litigation on a civil case. In addition a flat fee or 3000 for a day in court. When you add in the CMC's, the discovery, doc preparation and consultation it adds up and that is if you don't win. When you go to appeal to a higher court the escalated cost of litigation and procedures are even more. There may even be investigative costs though doubtful. It's very expensive to improve your position in an Oregon Court. Oregon has its own ADR and it's very hard to get awarded JAMS or AAA arbitration so add that cost in as well. Then you can ad the costs to go to Trial de Novo.   https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/94-970.html

There is one major problem with that theory.  Midland no longer hires one local law firm for a few cases at a time at an hourly billable rate.  They contract with a major debt mill firm with a national presence like H&H, or RSIEH to name a couple.  The recent trend in the past 3-5 years is to hire a debt mill firm for an annual fee which encompasses all collection efforts including court and appeals.  Each losing defendant is billed a flat rate that complies with the state laws on allowable fee charges.  They do this knowing the majority are default judgments requiring less than 2 hours to pump out standard paperwork to file the case.  Of the few who actually answer and show up the majority of those actually settle out of fear on trial day.  Probably less than 5% fight back to the end including a possible appeal.  The few like you who hire a lawyer or lose and appeal is factored in to the annual fee they pay because the number that stand up and fight is so very small.  To them it is a cost of business.

1 hour ago, HueyPilot said:

The quote on attorney costs came for a local long term employment attorney whom claimed at the time that he would represent me and in his letter to the opposing counsel he estimated it would cost the opposing counsel in the neighborhood of 80,000 to defend a case they could not win in Trial Court. The JDB attorney had only been practicing for less than one year according to his bar registration number.

Your attorney bluffed against a new lawyer and it worked.  It was a successful gambit but do not sell the costs like that was accurate.  Even the infamous "Coltfan" case on DB that he filed in FEDERAL court didn't come up to $80k in fees and costs for the other party and Federal Court is far more expensive that the small claims venue used for simple debt cases.  Even if the debt sued for was five figures the chances the litigation costs equal the debt are slim to none even with the biggest delays and attempts to pad costs.  The courts have gotten wise to that crap and it is one reason it didn't work for Coltfan.  

[WhoCares1000]

11 hours ago, HueyPilot said:

@Clydesmomis correct. I took the win and backed off. However it did cost D Gordan extra time in attorney fees to respond to my motion against MCM for costs. This is an older case and the SOL has tolled. It's of no further concern. I'm tooling up for another pending suit. 

The quote on attorney costs came for a local long term employment attorney whom claimed at the time that he would represent me and in his letter to the opposing counsel he estimated it would cost the opposing counsel in the neighborhood of 80,000 to defend a case they could not win in Trial Court. The JDB attorney had only been practicing for less than one year according to his bar registration number. My guy had well over 25 years of successful practice and had knocked many cases out of the park. If this is no longer a viable technique then so be it a least the bluff worked one time.  

I am reaching for methodology and maybe caselaw to recover costs as a future prevailing party and we may have got off the point. 

 

As to @Bulldoger inquiry for content of judgment of dismissal, its a half page of I raise the white flag. In the preconference meeting attorney for the plaintiff said "file your motion and order with points he would not oppose" and I did along with my cost bill. 

The issue here is that you think that the national JDBs simply look in the phone book for an attorney and then hires them at full rate. That is not what happens. As @Clydesmomhas said, they have a national law firm on retainer who they pay a set amount per case. Most of the process is automated anyways and a computer is what is making all of the decisions. The so called paralegals that they hire are really glorified debt collectors who get a % of what they can get you to settle for if you call. That is why we recommend all correspondence between you and the attorney be based on mail and if a court process requires that you pick up the phone and call them, demand to speak to the attorney only and not a paralegal. Most cases are not answered and lead to defaults or pre-answer settlements anyways and that is where the law office and JDB make the most money from collecting debts using the courts. Here in Minnesota, only 2% of those sued in court actually answer the case to begin with (even after the state required a cover letter on the complaint and summons in big bold red letters saying that you have been sued and must file an answer within 20 days to preserve your rights). The cheap paralegals are also the ones that do most of the back office work such as answering discovery and motions and that sort of thing. The lawyer signs off on those after looking through the documents, maybe 30 minutes top on a difficult subject, 5 minutes on all others.

For those that answer and get to a court hearing of some sort, the computer tells the law office to hire a local rent-a-attorney for a set fee of usually $150 for the case. the local attorney is usually one who is not part of a law firm and did not graduate top of their class. They may read over the case the night before to be up to speed (and some don't even do that and have no clue what is going on in court). The rent-a-attorney's best asset is not litigation by scaring you into a settlement in the hall. Usually, about 50% of those who answer end up settling leaving 1% of those sued who actually take the case to the end. That is why most JDBs drop cases which get too far in the court process. Your case has gone the furthest I have ever seen of someone who fought and actually wore the JDB down in the end. My guess is that court approved arbitration (not the consumer arbitration talked about) is cheap for the JDB so they chose to go that route.

This system is a well-oiled machine where only 1 in 100 people put enough sand into the machine to make them walk away and it is worth it to them. However, there is no way a simple debt case would cost $80,000 unless the case ended up going to SCOTUS which I doubt happening. Even arbitration does not get that high. Most likely, the JDB say that you were lawyering up and decided to quite because any lawyer worth their weight can get these cases thrown out. The computer algorithms even take that into account in deciding what to do next. I would be shocked if any of these cases, outside of contractual arbitration, cost more than a couple of thousand of dollars for the JDB to take all the way and more likely, less than $1000 for defaults (or whatever the state allows them to charge).

[BV80]

@HueyPilot

In addition to the details provided by @Clydesmomand @WhoCares1000, law firms use preprinted complaints and motions for summary judgment.  All they do is change the relevant details (names, amounts, dates).  They don’t spend time writing individual complaints and motions.  So they’re not doing that much work.

Also, attorney fees are considered as part of doing business and are tax deductible.  JDBs neither spend nor lose as we used to think.

Here are 2 complaints from 2 separate cases filed by Midland using Korn Law Firm.  As you can see, the are identical except for the relevant details.

https://www2.greenvillecounty.org/SCJD/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=23002&doctype=C&docid=1668237&HKey=104117119118113741181211057957115748165110546665102521148356801128812111868786871477912170809910175116115

 

https://www2.greenvillecounty.org/SCJD/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=23002&doctype=C&docid=1390673&HKey=11243104477010487651216987728373106113471175010110643575366112761171138988997088839010370695550117103
 

Here are 2 MSJs filed by Clarkson & Hale for 2 different lawsuits.

https://publicindex.sccourts.org/Richland/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=40002&doctype=D&docid=1576696828383-805&HKey=651076980898010657479973437490113797676481041101021041144952748447687870105774787114708086788489
 

https://publicindex.sccourts.org/Richland/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=40002&doctype=D&docid=1542292714383-328&HKey=784998114548282111488482707249817475848867871144773749768118779710512211197858889119691009711965

[HueyPilot]

Thank you for your valued input @WhoCares1000 as I am reaching for valid new devices or strategies in addition/alternative to arbitration that may prove useful to counter the escalating amount of litigation by Debt Buyers. When you see the ever increasing amount of bankruptcies and the thousands of homeless camps in any major city it's obvious our legal defense system has a major fail. Most people can't afford a defense and the average debtor subject to a collection lawsuit is clueless. These debt collectors are further beating these poor people into the ground. It's no wonder 95% of them give up as they have nothing more to lose and further skews the statistics. 

The banks are not helping the process lowering their qualification requirements for cardholders. Most rely on 23 - 25% interest rates on transactions and further charge the merchants 2 1/2 - 3 1/2% for each purchase transaction. Banks make major returns and factor in a charge off, computer calculated in X amount of months. They make additional kickers with sales to JDB's and the tax write-offs just adding to their bottom line. Additionally there's Credit Default Insurance and the International Monetary Fund which I don't understand.

To your point we have a major attorney contractor , Daniel Gordon out of Eugene, Oregon, who alone filed over 70,000 lawsuits in 2016 mostly in a two county area. What they have done as of late is not on public record I've been able to locate. It's a summary judgement law suit factory nothing more. Both the Debt Buyers and their attorney contractors apparently have some kind of Statistical selection Software prompting most likely candidates to target for lawsuits. I'm sure education, employment, residency and how long the accounts have been open is a factor. The Courts must love these guys as they account for a huge amount of fees and revenue. 

Electronic Data Processing and Data Collection is a major part of our world today and it only stands to reason with billions of dollars of resources these Debt Buyers can pretty much afford to do anything they want with litigation. They have the best equipment. (Not always the best attorneys or enough time to work all the cases) Major Debt Buyers probably have access to most data bases known to man and can quickly contract out huge batches of collectables to an attorney contractor in any given area in minutes. We live in the automation world. 

• We need to lobby and get new legislation for debtors. 
• We need to find ways to challenge electronic data processes. "Robo-signing" resolution only scratched the surface. Cookie Cutter Law Suits.
• We need to get more people to fight their law suits. (More availability of caselaw for defendants reference, materials on how to, simple court forms etc...)
• Free legal service for debtors. (Paid for by contributions of license fees from debt buyers - Minimum license fee 100K)
• CIC Debtor Board is FANTASTIC! Web master needs to make it easier to find. 

[HueyPilot]

1 hour ago, BV80 said:

@HueyPilot

In addition to the details provided by @Clydesmomand @WhoCares1000, law firms use preprinted complaints and motions for summary judgment.  All they do is change the relevant details (names, amounts, dates).  They don’t spend time writing individual complaints and motions.  So they’re not doing that much work.

Also, attorney fees are considered as part of doing business and are tax deductible.  JDBs neither spend nor lose as we used to think.

Here are 2 complaints from 2 separate cases filed by Midland using Korn Law Firm.  As you can see, the are identical except for the relevant details.

https://www2.greenvillecounty.org/SCJD/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=23002&doctype=C&docid=1668237&HKey=104117119118113741181211057957115748165110546665102521148356801128812111868786871477912170809910175116115

 

https://www2.greenvillecounty.org/SCJD/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=23002&doctype=C&docid=1390673&HKey=11243104477010487651216987728373106113471175010110643575366112761171138988997088839010370695550117103
 

Here are 2 MSJs filed by Clarkson & Hale for 2 different lawsuits.

https://publicindex.sccourts.org/Richland/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=40002&doctype=D&docid=1576696828383-805&HKey=651076980898010657479973437490113797676481041101021041144952748447687870105774787114708086788489
 

https://publicindex.sccourts.org/Richland/PublicIndex/PIImageDisplay.aspx?ctagency=40002&doctype=D&docid=1542292714383-328&HKey=784998114548282111488482707249817475848867871144773749768118779710512211197858889119691009711965

@BV80,

I totally understand. In looking at your references it appears the most work was done by the Court Clerk who had to hand post the date stamp, find and write in the case number and file the documents into the system. Electronic filing of documents possibly automates this process somewhat for a majority of courts today. 

In one of the Case Management Conferences (CMC) required to file a motion against Midland, the Daniel Gordan attorney suggested I had little chance of winning this motion nor the "Internet Defense" I was using. I proffered with his "Cookie Cutter Lawsuit" uses templates repetitiously filed with winning answers, strategies and solutions all over the internet. 

Additionally in a reply to one of my filed documents the attorney  countered one of my points saying all of this paperwork is unnecessarily taking up valuable court time. In my response to their reply I suggested they file for dismissal with prejudice to assist the court with time reduction so they can continue to work on the thousands of other cases they have filed with County Court. 

Yes, I get your point - automation today reduces the cost of everything. For us that may not be able to arbitrate we have to use other strategies. Breaking up the template routine is the beginning. Now if we only had more winning caselaw in Oregon! Your input helps us all. Computers are not vindictive. Would you spend 2000 to win a judgement for 1500.00? Dismiss without prejudice - file the next batch of lawsuits - file MSJ - rinse and repeat... ad nauseum. 

[Bulldoger]

1 hour ago, HueyPilot said:

Would you spend 2000 to win a judgement for 1500.00? Dismiss without prejudice - file the next batch of lawsuits - file MSJ - rinse and repeat... ad nauseum. 

I would it then be better to have 10 credit cards with $1000 balances than one card with  $10,000 balance if you were to lose employment.  In the first case you have 10 charge offs but may not be sued. In second case you have only one charge off but be likely to be sued.  In either case you  can't pay or be garnished until you find work again.